Grimburg HP68 (more or) Less Lethal Slugs - Excellent Performance

You bring up a lot of great points! Definitely something to think about. Thanks!

Marc Thomas

Had to edit all the misspells, and punctuation problems I could find out .... must be losing it!

Kimball Rustin Roy Scarr

My long belief in blunt trauma projectiles for "Intermediate Force Capability" i.e. non-lethal or less-than-lethal has been that hard projectiles like plastic... are better than soft projectiles like foam or rubber. Why is the dangerous part is really the total energy, but the real effective part is the pressure created and the number of pain receptors in the skin stimulated by that pressure to feel pain. So a soft projectile creates in impacting the skin less unit specific pressure [pressure divided by area] to stimulate the pain receptor nerves, which work by pressure sensing. Whereas, a hard but slightly resilient projectile like this nylon copper plastic creates a high unit specific pressure to stimulate the pain receptor nerves, which work by pressure sensing. Now it turns out in study of impacts to human bodies the spread of the pressure form either a soft projectile like a sponge foam grenade round or a rigid plastic projectile turns out be approximately the same or about 10% increase in effective projectile impact diameter, i.e. a 40mm projectile will act equivalent to a 44mm diameter impact effected zone. The soft one does this by projectile deformation and the harder plastic by tissue deformation. The cushion affect of the foam absorbing the energy internally as heat and the flesh are approximately the same in the real world... and it's sort of like a sliding scale from one to the other, but the total unit area specific pressures to the effected tissue is higher for a harder projectile for a given kinetic energy than the soft projectile. This creates a situation that soft projectiles are actually more dangerous to deeper internal injury which is what you want to avoid. Now the Army spend much work developing statistical models of these things. But few really take a good look at the models and interpretation of the results. Larry Studivan during his career at ERDEC at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, MD was the statistician / physicist who developed all the models used. Later these have been compared to the car crash detail of the Highway Safety Institute and they fully correlate. Living animal tests back all this up. I once asked Larry to give a presentation on these facts, and in the hour lecture or so I found everybody had been lost for about the last 57 minutes... the introductions 3 minutes was about the longest attention span for it, even with a technically trained audience! So I think there is little hope of anyone now-a-days really getting to the core. Hopefully, I have explained this in a simple manner.... with all the riot stuff and people shooting people with all kinds of safety bullets like paint balls and sponge bullets... it really is just as dangerous as just shooting with a 9mm... or about equivalent in outcome in many cases. Now the sense behind the Israeli's using 22 LR in Ruger rifles for "Intermediate Force Capabilities" and varying the effect by sniping accuracy placing non or less-than-lethal affect to the lower legs and feet... then when the wounds makes them seek medical care, catching them when they go to an Israeli run hospital for free medical care... it is really the most humane result of any,. I have caught hell when I have proposed developing flechette rounds for this purpose... just too icky for people to wrap their heads around, but even a heart shot with a properly designed flechette, and round would be low probability of death. Just no-one wants to be shot with one... and I say "well that is too bad stay home!" Now the British experience with both rubber and plastic bullets in N.Ireland was the most extensive. These weapons were personally ordered by the Queen to be used as it was believed they were safer than real bullets, or as I say penetrating projectiles. They turned out to be more dangerous, why is to have a effective blunt trauma round that will stop a person the potential probability for death within 24hrs is the same as for a penetrating lethal bullet ... about 40%. It was believed just the bigger impact and lack of penetration would do the trick. But it is just as dangerous to cause a pressure wave that damages the organs as a penetrating object. The former creates a non-operable injury and bleeding. The later creates an operable injury and bleeding. Why is tearing through a few large blood vessels is easier to medically treat than to have an entire organ seeping blood from tiny ruptured vessels like capillaries from a deeply widespread bleeding bruise. As I explain Princess Di would have been better off impaled on a road light pole than having her internal organs crushed by an impact pressure wave... transplant is the only help then! If you ask me the smart ones are the Israeli's using a 22 LR to accurately target the lower legs for a non to less-than Lethal effect.... and then targeting the heart or head if they want a lethal shot... and killing the vicious dogs that are now rampant in Palestine by the terrorist rioters.... which is what they are, the bullets cost about 4 cents rather than $27 a sponge round costs an agency typically. Then pick them up when the go to the emergency room at the Israeli's hospitals for free medical care, which in the 22 LR case is usually some antiseptic and a bandaid. But I am just a mean old man... that as the youth tell me "you dinosaurs just need to die off sooner than later". When I proposed a flechette round with for through penetration... hell even a heart shot is a low lethality wound requiring no medical intervention .... the wee willy wankers all faint off in some trauma!

Kimball Rustin Roy Scarr

It appears you knead to beat your clay.

emonkia

Yeah, the clay we use is anything but consistent. When it is fresh it is very soft but it dries out quickly and becomes harder. I add a little water to it and it becomes soft again, but there is probably some hard spots in it. It's great for light weight projectiles but heavy slugs will cause it to blow all over the range. lol

TAOFLEDERMAUS

Jeff - for those interested the Mil spec for "clay penetration" for less lethal projectiles is 40mm depth. Now they have you use a specific brand of clay, and they specify how much "mechanical kneading" and how, temperature and penetration of a weighted ball of certain size and material... big bunch of hassle to do.... like the ballistic gelatin. If Patreon had a means to post pictures I could for this that you would find interesting. Like all mil-spec. tests it is all just made up to make for a consistent medium for test, and based on work an Army lab did at some point after spending millions of dollars... ERDEC at Edgewood Arsenal Aberdeen MD., or Picatinny Arsenal in Rockaway, NJ or Ft. Eustis (human engineering of crashworthy materials for rotorwing aircraft) in Hampton Roads, VA or oh hell I forget... its in Virginia too outside Washington D.C. now a NASA facility - NASA Langley in Hampton VA near Hampton Roads. All bunch of crap I don't want to waste time or effort towards. Kevin Swenson Chief of Procurement for the DoD for all these "non lethals" tells me, recently, it is not at all under the terms either non-lethal or not less-lethal but, I copied his note below, so people would know exactly who to contact as to making any sales or program efforts with the ENTIRE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT including DOJ.... Senator Lugar and Sec. Def. Hagel on my behave created the current full program status to these type of things a few years ago it has status equal to DARPA within DoD and all the Human Factors Research and Engineering. Kevin in the letter is a little pissed I have discontinued efforts on his big hope the 40mm RAG. But here is his note pasted below is so people know how and who to contact. Kevin is a little bit bureaucrat and a little bit office lizard (comes with the job) so be positive and friendly. The Army's urgent needs office is at Ft. Belvoir, VA... "Rapid Equipping Force (REF)". In this note Kevin does not know really what I mentioned to him but the information can be extrapolated... 12 gauge they do buy but don't like... and they don't like the Israeli's solution with is to shoot people in the foot or lower leg, if they are throwing rocks....with a 22 LR, or in the chest or head if they shooting at something with the 22 LR, or kill the trained attack pit bull dogs the bad guys in Palestine are using now... all with a 22 LR standard Ruger off the shelf rifle... cheap! I am sanguine of this use and think it a great idea.... this link is a Russian Political Point of View News Outlet... [aren't they all !] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y9MtIfbhyw My comments as to this provides some prospective, down aways in the comment section of it. Ok here is DoD contact info note... when he refers to the cost and capability trade off that is a big concern in DoD... don't believe it... but Trump has them on a short leach compared to a decade ago... June 02, 2020 "Mr Scarr, Glad you have recovered and are back developing Intermediate Force Capabilities (IFC – Replaces NLW Lexicon). All DoD forces I have worked with do not require sub-machine gun or 9mm IFC munitions. The single-shot 40mm RAG was the munition that best met DoD requirements. The biggest challenge was what range, performance, cost, accuracy, reduced Risk of Significant Injury, etc… was sufficient for one of the Services to write a requirements document and request funding from us to develop the capability. At this point, our NATO allies seem to be the best IFC customers. Respectfully, Kevin Swenson Acquisition Division Chief Joint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office MCB Quantico, VA 22134-5100 DSN 378-0906 or COM (703)432-0906 703.755.5220 (C) Hope this is helpful... I think the plastic rounds make great self defense rounds.... this is what I use exclusively for self-defense. I consider the 22LR or something like as a great less-than-lethal for shooting people in the foot or lower legs... the bad guys can then be picked up quietly when they seek medical aid... just like the Israeli's do!

Kimball Rustin Roy Scarr

The targets are strapped down by: Newton's First Law of Motion: An object at rest will stay at rest, and an object in motion will stay in motion unless a force acts on it.

Gerald King

Good to hear that Danny is doing better.

Dr. Strangelove

I use BB shot. Up close it's going to make an impression, but as it spreads out, will not overpenetrate. Thanks for another great test.

Dr. Strangelove

P.S. For those that want you to strap the target down, tell them to look up "inertia".

Bear Barre

Good shooting, Lady. I heard that if you sprinkle fairy dust on the slug and close both eyes when you fire, it will NOT penetrate drywall.... but that's just what I heard.

Bear Barre

As of today he is still really sore. He thinks they cracked some ribs during surgery. He's tough, but it might be a few more weeks until we see him shooting again.

TAOFLEDERMAUS

thanks!

TAOFLEDERMAUS

thanks David!

TAOFLEDERMAUS

I use Titewad to make Teddy Bear fart loads for my .40 S&W Keep up the great work. Breanna is a great addition to the group.

Lot's of fun! Great video. Hope Danny is doing well?

Aaron Neumeyer

Cool video as always.

"shut up and take my money!" Love the content, and will continue to support. Patreon, Utreon where ever....

David Grunt