DITW 15-8: Into the Void

I'm not sure anyone here admires the Stones, but it is a fashion of the "real world" that guys like that, who step over everything and everyone on the way to the top, are worshiped and glorified, so if that was ultimately part of the story, I couldn't say it wasn't "realistic" I guess. But I'd agree with L_S87, right now Devlin seems like he's been dealt with offscreen. And it appears he's paid a price, lost his high price cushy job with Daddy and banished to Vancouver (no offense to the fine folks there). Whether that's the actual reality, we don't know (and I still doubt it very much myself). But from what we know, he's not a part of this right now so he's out of sight, out of mind. Keith at this point is just a cipher, we know nothing about him other than the brief descriptions made by Kimmy and/or Devlin, and how Josh perceives him to be. There could be a wide range of realities to who he is and his involvement in all this. So it's hard to condemn a guy when we don't yet know exactly what he's done. This last chapter, to me, left us in a very murky place, where nothing quite makes sense and the next chapter may lead us down a dozen possible roads. That plus a 10 day break between chapters has our heads spinning a bit.

JL23

I get what your saying about the Stones. As it was happening, there was a lot of condemnation of Devlin, so it's not like *he* was given a free pass, but not many people are commenting on him now for the very reason Chris stated. He's seemingly, at least for now, relegated to the garbage bin of the story. Only mentioned once in Kimmy and Josh's discussion. He's currently irrelevant, so... Nothing to condemn because he's literally nothing. People aren't condemning Keith because we don't know if there's anything to condemn. We lack vital info at this point to pass judgment. There's a difference between Kimmy seducing Keith Stone to "do what she has to" and Keith Stone making a conditional "deal" for Kimmy's lack of confinement. We just don't know. So why condemn someone that we have no info to justify it?? As to the others, Kimmy made her bed. She made choices. Some of us wanted her to have to live with them. I'm okay with Kimmy getting Josh back, I just hate the way that it's been portrayed, because it doesn't feel like she's corrected any of her mistakes or actually earned him back like she promised. She's just putting on different masks until she finds one Josh likes. It doesn't feel like she earned her way back, it's just being given to her. If she's being manipulative because she's suffering internally... Well, actions have consequences, and instead of doing right by Josh to get him back properly, she's being a succubus and a deceiver. So yeah, I'm not that worried about her "suffering". I'm okay with her finding a way to happiness. In fact I'd like that, because she made mistakes and I think second chances should be a thing. But not like this. This isn't earning a second chance. At least not to me. Not the way she's clawing her way back into Josh's life after voluntarily leaving it. As for Josh.. him *not* being weak is my whole argument to why this is illogical and I don't like it. So I'm on the exact opposite of the spectrum. Josh giving in here is showing a weakness I feel he doesn't have. Oh yes, he has many, but he also has strengths. One of those has always been a lack of acceptance of Kimmy's bullshit that her being with someone else and Josh's kinks should make her actions "okay". They aren't, and he never has been. Until this weak excuse suddenly flipped the script. So no, Josh isn't weak, regardless of how he's being portrayed here. He is, however, very complicated. And I think the intent is to show that he wants Kimmy back badly enough that he's willing to accept or sacrifice anything. I just disagree that he's actually that person. Hopefully next chapter will offer another twist... And some explanations. When we finally get it.

L_S87

L_S, You want a 'just' system of reward and punishment (criteria) for what you perceive to be right and wrong included in an author's book or work... I don't... I think that what the entertainment media want... and what readers, viewers, spectators etc think they want from artists, does not always coincide with what creators produce. I side with the creators... I don't require the approval of others to enjoy their creations. Nor do I think I should allow what pleases, or more importantly, displeases them to interfere with the enjoyment I, and other like minded individuals receive from those very creations. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you... Let the person who is without sin cast the first stone. Reciprocity! After all KT is quite open about what she offers us... 'we' don't have to prove we are deserving... that would be just plain mean.

Bill F Protagoras

She didn't. He isn't. They aren't.

Bill F Protagoras

She refashioned herself into a femme fatale when she was at her lowest ebb and seduced and used a real life bully then cast him aside when she saw him for the creature of smoke and mirrors he was... She did it 'for' herself... and she thought... for the man she loved... As tricksters so often do she sailed too close to the wind ... but she defied the odds... and the show ain't over till the Diva shoots the breeze... and Kimmy is no opera singer, she is a divine mover and shaker!!! And Josh is a dark horse...

Bill F Protagoras

She did it to herself. He is. Out of sight, out of mind.

Chris K

Some of her books sound interesting and yet they are unavailable

Andrew Mellein

As mean as Jess was to Pete near the end and I felt Pete gave her too much of an easy pass, I mostly let it go because Tyler was such a rampaging asshole behind her back and basically hid his personality from her. Only Pete knew how awful he was and was basically trying to rescue Jess from him, even though Jess clearly didn't want to be rescued. She even got a glimpse of how Tyler could truly be when they went on vacation, she just kept the blinders on until Pete forced a confrontation. Interesting thought on who's worse, Tyler or Devlin. The answer is obviously Kimmy. 😛

L_S87

I don't know who's worse. Kimmy or Jess? Devlin or Tyler? Devlin didn't have any plans of stealing Kimmy away from Josh (that I know of) where Tyler obviously had plans to take Jess away from Pete. Hell, he told him as much! KT can sure create some very unlikeable characters!

Bill H.

It amuses me that so many people liked my 'confession' about a work that has not even ended yet... I still cannot understand why tormented Kimmy has been subjected to so much condemnation, and Josh is so readily dismissed as weak and an easy mark. Meanwhile, the greedy abusive Stones of this world are given a free pass... Are even admired!

Bill F Protagoras

She also writes shorts under the name Victoria Wessex. You're right! But I can't find'em!

Bill F Protagoras

Me too.... but that... like her may be complicated.

Bill F Protagoras

Too bad Kasari doesn't have more digital releases. A lot of those books sound really good.

Chris K

Didn’t know anything about them. Thanks Bill!

Andrew Mellein

I think she’s been suffering, Bill. I’ve said that I want Kimmy to have a happy ending in this story, as well as Josh, in whatever form of happiness that is. It would be easier to have more sympathy and compassion for her if we knew what she’s gone through. I believe she truly loves Josh, too. She’s a complicated person, and I want to know what she’s been through.

Kat

Just picked these up myself!

Chris K

Yeah, I don't question she's suffering to some extent, that she truly misses Josh, or even that there isn't some level of consequence, or compromise(s) she's been forced to make to be where she is now. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some aspect of all of those things in play. It's just we haven't seen what it could be yet, we've only seen her through Josh's lens where she appears to have it all.

JL23

Bill, no I have not. Thanks for the recommendations!

Andrew Mellein

Guests can choose to leave if you treat them poorly... Not to imply KT has, but every writer must walk the line between doing what they want and making sure that doesn't alienate their readers because losing readers means you no longer have an audience to write for. Much like producers or developers will often create a film or game that tanks because they can't help but be political or preachy in ways most viewers or players don't want, thus making a flop that loses money, an author must make choices with that in mind. And blaming the watchers, or readers, as being "wrong", while easy, doesn't fix the problem. Not that what is happening here is anywhere near that bad, but I've said it before and I'll say it again, KT gains no benefit from me disliking something and keeping quiet about it. She doesn't have to change anything, but she gathers valuable data points for future works when we provide "reviews" or critiques of what is being written. As long as one is being respectful, providing feedback is vital to improvement. An echo chamber provides nothing of notable value.

L_S87

I'm not sure where you're getting "everyone" presumes she's not suffering, Bill. I think most of us feel either she is, and is desperate, or she isn't and this is a massive manipulation. Or there's a million variations in between. There's a difference between internal suffering and permanent external consequences for their relationship. That's what's being debated.

L_S87

Too much white noise!

Bill F Protagoras

Dear fellow patrons, I don't even agree with most of your opinions about Nia, and Cherry Blossoms! KT knows how to throw a fox in a hen house!

Bill F Protagoras

We know so little of Kimmy's interior life why does everyone presume she isn't suffering. There are plenty of indications that she is... People routinely feel more than one thing at the same time! In the last books we have deranged glimpses ot the effects of trauma on her. She tries to appear rational but she clearly has irreconcilable 'issues' churning up her insides in much more ways than one!

Bill F Protagoras

Have you read "Taking Ashley" by Taylor Thomas, Andrew? I have it in paperback and on Kindle... It's an extremely impressive one off! I don't know if it's still available. PS It is... I just looked on A.com. Also have you read Hotwife Karina- Shared by Thomas Roberts? I also enjoyed My Wife, the Escort by Victoria Kasari... Also in paperback...

Bill F Protagoras

Yup, Mike, as my parents would say in remonstrance of my bad habits... "that's a nice nose dya pick it yourself?" Possibly quoting Groucho Marx? They never used the word remonstrate in my hearing... or possibly in their lifetimes... but they were good at it anyroad...

Bill F Protagoras

"Heaven is my judge, not I for love and duty, But seeming so, for my peculiar end. For when my outward action doth demonstrate The native act and figure of my heart In compliment extern, 'tis not long after But I will wear my heart upon my sleeve For daws to peck at. I am not what I am." HaHaHahHahHah... Love me the asides to the audience of a pantomime villain... topped off with a soupcon of deranged laughter!

Bill F Protagoras

You got something on your nose Bill!

Chris K

...Josh... The women at his work even those who saw him fished out of the drink think he is a hot number. He was encouraged to come back to his job even after his disastrous second Rome expedition... and a prolonged absence. A putative scion of Errol Flynn swashbuckling babe fucking Hollywood superstar saw Josh as an attractive studly bike riding artistic target for his affections. Kimmy is quite obviously still obsessed with him, whatever else our thin-lipped Achilles wants, her acquisitive nature wants to keep her claws in HER husband... God help him. I'm not sure 'we' deserve a writer of KT's calibre... Well... I do! Or do I because I am an unreliable narrator? JOSH and KIMMY are the protagonists of KT Morrison's book whether you lot like it or not ... Readers are just guests in the works they read... please adhere to the traditions of 'xenia' we don't want any more decade long wars on the plains of Illium... or dining rooms in Ithaca strewn with bloody suitors who over stayed their welcome or serving trollops strung up for 'collaborating' with them in their excesses! I adore the Waters warts and all... Keep up the good work KT and I'm sorry if anything I have taken from up my sleeve has offended or discomfited you in any way... I assure you it was never my intention.

Bill F Protagoras

After reading Peter G Johnson's Greener Grass book 2. I will take whatever KT gives us in this final book no matter how illogical story choices and characters are and be satisfied by the outcome. Because my god that book I just read is a mess in a half. Characters doing stupid things, recycled plots from his previous books, story beats that constantly kept repeating. Such as inner dialogue where the husband Richard debates whether he should continue letting his wife bang their young black tennant (she hasn't once had sex or cared about her hubby's feelings in most the book ) or if he should tell her it has to end. I was at the point where I screamed "kick your whore wife out of the house and take custody of your daughters". It also felt like a pale imitation of KT's Learning Lessons which is superior in every way. It just proves KT is the master of this genre!

Andrew Mellein

Is that the one with the half off clam shell bar in the penthouse?

Chris K

We still may get parts of it, Kat. It just probably isn't realistic to expect all of it. Or at least, all of what I'd want. Guess I'm learning to be OK with that and accept what we get.

JL23

I was hoping for a Cherry Blossoms type ending here, too, JL. It doesn’t look like we’re going to get it. I didn’t expect something identical, but something where Josh becomes stronger and Kimmy has to face some consequences would have been great. Getting back together is not dependent on that kind of ending.

Kat

Exactly. It was left for us to decide the ending, which was different. I also thought Nia worked hard on her own to grow up a bit and she deserved another shot with Geoff. She never humiliated Geoff, unless he requested it. She never once said she wasn't married (even living with Rocco), and she never took her rings off. She absolutely loved Geoff, and it showed, although she made some really bad choices. But Kimmy has only earned all the material things she has. She done nothing to deserve being with Josh. IMO.

Chris K

It wasn’t officially shown they are back together, but to me that was the heavy, heavy implication. She’s about to tell him she’s pregnant with his child, but also the look he gives her when seeing she’s pregnant (without knowing that key fact yet) and asking her to stay for dinner is meant to convey they would reconcile. For me, that book just played perfectly to my own sensibilities and “wants” for an ending for specific characters. I guess the only quibble would be maybe it’s a tad too convenient the baby is Geoff’s, and that the conception is from a moment that left Geoff horrified at his actions afterwards. But maybe that’s constructive to Geoff’s growth and ability to forgive, as he sees how you can do something in the moment that you immediately regret and through which hurt someone else. That ending was as close to getting 100% of what I’d personally want, but as we know, life doesn’t always work that way. So maybe I need to let go of that expectation for every story.

JL23

Nia didn't get Geoff back. They were cordially separated. They both grew stronger apart from each other, but never got back together. It was an ambiguous ending

Chris K

I thought the scene where Nia is alone in her apartment watching Geoff and Odie, the two people she loved most, on the kids show in New York, having a great time without her, was a devastating scene from Nia’s perspective. You see what she lost, when the only thing she had to look forward to was a booty call from Rocco, who she didn’t really want anymore (and who messing around with other people anyway). Or, the idea she wouldn’t be at Geoff’s sister’s wedding, she’d be relegated to staying upstairs, and that the sister mostly seems to hate her now. Yes, it appears she is back with Geoff at the end, but there were things, or moments at least, she “lost” along the way, that she can never get back. I guess at a minimum, I’d prefer to see if Kimmy experienced a bit of that. I think we saw some of it in the last book, as she goes to the hospital and everyone is cold to her, and she realizes she didn’t get invited to the party. But, that’s a small thing, and by appearances doesn’t seem to really have rocked her in any way. But again…appears not to.

JL23

Chris, that book is already out. It is called "Toronto's Famous Hotel and Mansion Ceilings," by K.W. Chang.

Donkatsu

There is merit to your point, JL. Although I felt like Nia didn't have to go through much to get Geoff back. Yes, her choices had consequences that showed her the grass wasn't greener, but she didn't necessarily have to work all that hard to trip Geoff back into bed with her. So there weren't much in the way of permanent consequences for her actions, just transient ones that pointed her in the right direction to get her back with Geoff. Kimmy, in so many ways, has been so much more egregious with her actions, though, that you're right, it felt *right* for this to be a series that broke the mold and had lasting consequences that the wife couldn't just wave away with a bit of time and manipulation. (To be fair to Nia, while she was pretty awful there leading up to the split, it very much felt like she *got it* when she found her way back and was appreciative of her luck for a 2nd chance) That's not to imply Kimmy won't be, only that her current actions don't really scream "I'm sorry and I'll make it up to you." So much as "I'm still a selfish bitch and I need you to make me happy." Probably a bit harsh, but her actions are more about her than they are about Josh. And with Josh's capitulation, there seems to be no consequences, relationship wise, for all her sins. A lot can change in a chapter, though.

L_S87

I doubt Josh jumps out of bed in the next scene. He seemed too excited after finding out what was (or wasn’t) in her pants.

Kat

Yeah, I’m kind of disappointed to see how low Josh has gotten, unemployed, addicted to benzos, etc. He just caved into a pile of nothing. I’m expecting Josh to lose in the end, maybe being with Kimmy, but in a weakened position. I really, really hope Josh doesn’t take over for Hyun as the stay at home dad.

Kat

Ever seen the movie Pet(2016)? The very end of that movie seems fitting! 😬

Chris K

I just wonder if the scenario that may be most "satisfying" to a lot of us is one we already got in a KT story with Nia/Geoff. Where the wife has to go through the hardships to work her way back to "earning" the husband. Not to say we won't get that still. But feels like maybe KT has a different story in mind here. At this point, I don't know what that is, so trying to reserve judgment. And yeah, I agree Kimmy's behavior does feel erratic to me too, and deserves more of an explanation that just "everything worked out for her whether through luck or skill, and now she's just trying to get Josh to be comfortable with it." I believe there will be "more" to it, but I've kind of given up on the idea of Josh being with Karina, or anyone else, and Kimmy has to work her way back to him. It just doesn't seem like what we're leading to.

JL23

We'll see, Chris. We very well could get a no one wins sort of scenario. While being massively manipulative is definitely a Kimmy staple, she's acting so erratic I'm wondering if she's in so deep that her having "everything" is a carefully crafted facade that's slowly cracking, which is why she needs Josh so badly to prop it up. She's about to implode and wants Josh to stabilize her. Which potentially means them both going under, or at least being trapped in a dark place. So much speculation. Who knows? I could still see a scenario where Kimmy ends up with everything, but it's a hollow victory. Now, if we're talking true justice, where Karina's revelation that Kimmy doesn't deserve him is made real and Josh actually ended up with someone he deserves, well yeah, that's clearly not happening. It would be interesting to see KTs take on a novel or series with permanent consequences. Assuming that doesn't happen here. I mean, Josh could jump out of bed in the next chapter and go find Karina. Very unlikely given the last couple chapters and typical precedent for KT novels, but anything is possible.

L_S87

Even with Kimmys POV, Josh's sudden 180 sucks. Hopefully he has a card up his sleeve. But, nobody ever writes these books with a favorable outcome for the husband that doesn't allow the wife to first and foremost get everything she desires above all. So, I don't expect much either way.

Chris K

I wanted the backstory more for Kimmy’s feelings, not so much for the actions. She really felt changed in the last book. I hope we don’t have to wait much longer. A week between chapters is too long.

Kat

Yeah, I think that, too, JL. It sounds like she’s saying whatever she needs to for Josh to stay with her. The whole Stone Sr. thing sounds ridiculous, unless she was being forced to pay for her crimes with her body. This whole “he can’t get it up” stuff doesn’t seem believable. I just wish we’d get another chapter already.

Kat

I also think from Josh’s POV, Kimmy really is acting in way to give him whiplash. From being desperately earnest for him to not abandon her, but also not really giving him much to understand why she feels that way, and then to ramping up trying to seduce him. There has to be a story behind all that, we just don’t know it yet. I’d personally be disappointed if there’s not.

JL23

JL is right. While I may be harping on Josh, getting Kimmy's POV of why she's acting the way she is and what she's been up to the last few months will really help flesh out the end of this. For me, we kinda need that for it to be "complete." Even if I don't agree with how Josh is being handled, it would make it much worse for me, and be a totally different level of wrong, if we weren't allowed to experience where Kimmy is coming from and what's lead her to this place. Yeah, we've come up with all these fantastical ideas, but I want to know. Not the least of which is because Josh is a bad POV to understand Kimmys actions. He only ever sees what he wants to see, good and bad. I kinda feel we'll either get a reformed Kimmy fighting to fix her mistakes, but kinda trapped by them, or Kimmy as she's always been. A lying, manipulative, egotistical bitch who wants everything, and doesn't care what she has to do to get it. She didn't seem to be that person anymore after the last book, but the last year may have simply hardened her into even more of that persona. Hopefully we'll see soon. Waiting an entire week for one chapter is rough.

L_S87

The frustration is really not hearing from Kimmy and only getting Josh's interpretations of her actions. She seems sincere in being desperate for Josh to stay and not abandon her...not Colleen, her...but then seems very reluctant to give him an exact reason why. When he starts pushing, then she falls back to the seduction dance. It indicates to me she's still hiding something, but maybe not. We just don't know until we hear from her directly. While maybe she's lying to herself, at least we'll have an idea for some of her actions that have kind of seemed random, contradictory and out of left field.

JL23

Not 100% True. He has a job, starts on Wednesday. He has a place to stay, with his cousin. Been living there for a while, even went on a trip with Meyer. Part of why I feel so much of this is kinda sketchy, from my perspective. You're right we need to wait. Getting Kimmy's POV to parse truth from lies will help a lot in understanding where this is going.

L_S87

I feel like we have to get some of that, Kat/Chris. Maybe not whole chapters, but some highlights from Kimmy’s POV on what happened over the last year. I don’t think you can really complete the story without that. All we know right now is she stayed with Hyun for 3-4 months, then moved to her own apartment and then this house. And she seemed very sad and nervous for those first few months when at Hyun’s. So what happened at that 3-4 month mark to change that and lead her to where she is now? I don’t think we’ll be able to understand the ending without knowing at least the answer to that, so I’m confident we’ll get that as a minimum.

JL23

It could be so good, right? I’d love to know what happened the minute she stepped into the elevator. Where did she go? (Hyun’s most likely) How did she get out of trouble? What happened with Devlin? Did she sleep with Stone, etc.?

Kat

Yeah, I think we've sliced and diced this chapter, and the previous ones in this book, about as much as we can. Hopefully we get a new chapter soon, even though that will just create more questions lol. I guess what I'd most like to see is some idea of whether anything Kimmy is portraying about her relationship with Keith is close to the reality. The more I've sat on it and re-read this chapter, it feels more and more like she's just saying whatever she thinks Josh wants to hear to get him to stay. So I really don't know what is close to the truth.

JL23

I also want a whole book from just Kimmy pov about the year she had. 😁

Chris K

Think KT might post a new chapter today? I’m kind of at my limit in dissecting this book up to this point. In the meantime, I’ve been rereading some of the earlier books. Certain moments ring differently now that we have more of the story. I only wish KT hadn’t jumped over a year. I know many readers want her to finish this series and move on, but IMO we missed out on a lot that could have been a good read, and answered at least some of our questions. Also, I just enjoy all the details, and have been making up my own story on the past year in my head. This story preoccupies my brain! Lol I hope she at least addresses some of this in the last few chapters.

Kat

Bill, L-S, Part of the problem here is that Josh is totally without resources and power in this exchange with Kimmy. He has no job, no money, no place to live. She will control access to their alleged joint issue. Hard to imagine she rebounded as quickly as she has without being able to work some of her wiles on Keith. We have no idea about whether his rubber whopper problem is real or just another gaslighting story from Kimmy. I would not write off her talents at misdirection just yet. As we all know, within the next 24-48 hours we will all be proved wrong by the next chapter, so we need to chill and imagine that wet enticing cunny.

Donkatsu

I thought we would have a new chapter by the weekend.

Andrew Mellein

So where is the next chapter? Why do we think it’s delayed? Is KT trying to get ahead and make sure she doesn’t need to change anything? Is she struggling with the epilogue? It didn’t seem that way from her comments. Maybe some other reason? Life has intervened before. My assumption/expectation, obviously erroneous, was that these final chapters were just rolling off the word processor for KT and she was in her element. Maybe it’s a bit harder for her to close this off, or she is reading the feedback too much.

Tracey52

It could be he wants sex badly enough and he wants Kimmy to give him a reason where it could work with Keith. And maybe Kimmy knows that and has been workshopping for a concept that works since they walked into the apartment. Or maybe ever since she started with Keith, whenever and for whatever reason she did. Who knows, I think even I have reached my analytical limits on this chapter, hopefully we get the next one soon so speculation can begin fresh again.

JL23

LOL! Love that first statement, Bill. It actually highlights one of those moments where I called out what I felt was a mistake in the Maggie series. And it also actually highlights my issue here. If Josh was of the "I haven't had pussy for a year, I *need* this!" mindset, it would make sense to me. I'd still dislike the fact Josh was painted into that kind of corner, because I want better for him, but it would 100% make sense. My issue is that he's not thinking that way, instead he's finding logic and acceptance in Keith being impotent and that's why Kimmy's cheating is okay. And that's just wrong for me. Now, I could see a tack where Josh wants sex badly enough he's justifying it in his mind in the moment but will later recant and have issue with it. That actually is like Josh. I just feel he's put too much emphasis on this scenario not being okay for such a flimsy excuse to make it fine. Ultimately, you're right, we have to wait and see, because there's so much we don't know that could change all of this. Having to wait a week plus for an update isn't helping.

L_S87

All I can say is have you never seen a wet enticing cunny and not fucked it? I think it's too soon to believe Josh is going to give into Kimmy's wiles, if they are wiles and not as I have hinted a clumsy attempt to effect an emotional short cut. The entire 'Keith' thing seems eminently sordid, applying Occam's Razor to what little we know of him he doesn't strike me as a warm cuddly philanthropic sugar daddy. And Kimmy's bizarrely blasé chatter about him as though they are bosom buddies makes me suspect she is nowhere near as adroit as she once believed herself to be. What matters with him is not how hard his dick gets... and certainly seems a condescending piece of information to convey to Josh after what she has put him through. If she uses such subtlety with clients she had best cling to Josh and hope he regains the confidence of his employers... because Josh no longer has a compelling reason to give her the benefit of the doubt... Who needs a Devlin dressed in a Kimmy skinsuit? Next thing she'll have mugwumps as colleagues! And I'm talking William Burroughs!

Bill F Protagoras

Two things. 1. You guys have very good points on the ways Josh is consistent in who he's always been. Being a victim, viewing himself as not worthy, enjoying Kimmy's darkness even though he doesn't want to. I don't deny those points. But they don't address the areas he's showing inconsistency here. Things i've brought up before that underpin my dislike of the current path for him. Josh fought intensly to not be weak and give in to Kimmy on blanket acceptance of her desire to cuckold him. He left the apartment, he setup a rendezvous with Devlin and then almost threw up in the bathroom after watching them together (because he was trying to see things Kimmy's way), ultimately left angry with Kimmy after throwing a chair at Devlin. Legitimately threw up when Kimmy said she showed Devlin her tits. Ran into a lake and almost killed himself to get away from thinking all his friends knew he was a cuckold. And yet... after all of that, I'm to believe that Keith Stone's impotence solves all of that and suddenly it's not such a big deal anymore? He'll be fine sharing Kimmy with someone named Stone, won't be fussed that everyone will know he's a cuckold? Nope. Not no way, not no how. Never happening. You guys can be okay with it. Your prerogative to apply more weight to the other factors and less to these. We all see things differently. I will never see this as consistent with who Josh has fought to be. 2. I can be rather demanding in what I view as enjoyable literature. For me, there's a large difference between "good", or well written and enjoyable. What I find enjoyable is rather narrow in nature. I find most of what KT writes to be enjoyable, but not everything, even if its generally very well written. Some of my favorite works are people who adapt and overcome life's tribulations. That's pretty much the core of what KT writes, at least in her larger series like this. But I feel like Josh isn't really doing much of that with the decisions being made. He was... and then it all just sort of went away. It feels less like he's choosing to do this because he loves Kimmy and is fighting for what he wants and instead is simply succumbing to the path of least resistance, after having fought very hard not to. And at the end of the day, that's just not very enjoyable for me. It doesn't make it awful, it just makes it not my cup of tea. At the end if the day, Bill is right that we must wait and see. I know that's why KT isn't responding to must of this stuff. Answering concerns like some of us have will drop way too many spoilers and simply risk spawning more issues. I'm sure once this is done, we can have a nice AAR with KT.

L_S87

Yes... if it is well written. I love SF, when I was a teenager I read little else voluntarily, except for fantasy, which I would now say contains all literature. There are few genres I haven't read. Like Chabon I think that the 'Cultured' canon is just another genre with its own ludicrous tropes and snobbery. People like to establish their 'uniqueness' by rejecting the 'other.' We are a pathetic needy bunch.

Bill F Protagoras

I don't dislike her intensely I simply don't write analytical posts... what I dislike about her at the moment is her banality... I think she has little idea what she wants, and seldom has. Josh has not been the two dimensional character you have described... if anybody has been transactional in the Waters' relationship it has been him. People change constantly which seems to be a major part of Heraclitus's theories. Reducing life to objectives and achievements is to miss its intrinsically chaotic nature. I loathe people who think they are special and entitled to ride roughshod over the lives of others... I have yet to meet a person who deserves a better life than anyone else. I love Kimmy and hope she can save herself from joining the ranks of those who are a bane to humanity... I don't think she deserves more punishment than she is already inflicting on herself. All lives end in the same abrupt fashion...

Bill F Protagoras

Bill, do you enjoy dystopian science fiction?

Donkatsu

I think we don't agree on what is enjoyable... Madame Bovary is enjoyable, the Trial is enjoyable, Jacobean and Elizabethan tragedies Dostoyevsky, William Falkner are enjoyable Cormac Mc Carthy's Blood Meridean, as well as several thousand other novels that many other readers would have no difficulty in agreeing are enjoyable.

Bill F Protagoras

Seems to me Josh remains who he always has been, going back to Tiffany's party - got a kink he doesn't want to admit; has too many memories of high school that he needs to file away permanently; won't stand up for himself or say what he thinks whenever he is under any kind of pressure; needs to get a divorce from alcohol; needs to be more honest with himself about who he is and what he wants; his lack of self-confidence gives him negative charisma, he is a natural victim; he believes that love and marriage do not contain transactional elements - ha ha ha! Kimmy, otoh, has many orthogonal issues to Josh's. She has been the same person, the one Bill realizes he dislikes intensely, and becoming more so since the party. We only know of the cat basket immigration lawyer by anecdote; we have never actually seen that Kimmy. She knows what she wants and goes after it; she is willing to stake out a position, defend that position and lie about it, if needed; what she wants has higher priority than the wants or needs of those around her, they just have to get with the program; her looks, confidence, and drive give her charisma (well that and well functioning vaginal peristalsis and the absence of a gag reflex); she can suppress her deeper feelings about a person or subject for as long as necessary to achieve her objectives; all relationships are transactional and there is a word for those who don't understand that - tool.

Donkatsu

Eh, having thought on this some more... I see what you mean, Bill. While I'll happily die on the hill of thinking Josh in this chapter is wildly inconsistent with who he's been up to this point, and how hard he fought in the last few books to not make such an easy capitulation, there is a valid point that a large portion of my dissatisfaction stems from Josh's treatment in this final book. Not how he acts, but the writing decisions that put him in such a box of woe and misery, after 14 books of the same. Truly a horror novel for that to continue. I will say that a "good" book is all a matter of perspective, and if KTs writing decisions ruin a book, for me, then that is still a valid opinion and *is* an indictment of the author and her work. For me. Because I will only ever read things I enjoy, so its important to note when its something I don't. And that last bit is the important part. Because KT doesn't have to change anything for me or anyone else, and if she's satisfied with what she wrote, then for *her*, that's all that should matter. But for *me*, I can still hate it and share my opinion of why. Because I think that's valuable to KT as well. Like Going to Far. Hated that book. Well written, made sense, consistent characters. Hated it. Things like that are important for KT to know, so she can file it away and perhaps influence her decisions when writing future works. That's not to say my opinion is somehow vital, or should even be considered, in her decision making, only that it provides a data point for her, and more data is always valuable. At the end of the day, if this ends up being something I dislike, I'll simply never read it again and will wait for KT to get back to writing Summer Swap, because I know I *love* that.

L_S87

Yeah, this is one of those things that we'll just never see eye to eye on. You see logic where i do not. Although I will say, because I've said it multiple, multiple, multiple times. I don't proscribe to there being only one right ending. I can see Josh and Kimmy in all sorts of different scenarios, that given time and explanation, would make sense. And also to be clear, I don't think anything is ruined. Yet. I only think it could be, for me. Not necessarily others. And the "ruining" will have nothing to do with punishment for Kimmy, only the lack of consistency you and I disagree on. We all see things differently, and were all allowed to agree or disagree on how we see those things. For me, if I think mistakes have potentially been made, I think its a disservice to KT not to let her know I feel that way. And to be clear, I'm not vexed because Kimmy isn't being made to toe the line, I'm vexed because you say the characters are consistent, I say they aren't. So its unlikely you'll ever relate to my POV. And that's fine. (Edited to add that this is purely a Josh thing for me and his character in this last book. Kimmy is, as near as I can tell, very consistent to who she has always been, if a bit off because she seems to be hiding things) I will say that I had hoped Kimmy would have tangible, permanent consequences for her actions, and so far we haven't seen that. Although there is still more book to come. But that was just a hope based on wanting an ending as unique and different as the body of work. I've never read a book where KT had lasting consequences for her female protagonist who acted egregiously, and thought this was the perfect opportunity for it. That seems to not be happening here, and that's okay. I still dislike what I see as inconsistencies in the story, but I'm probably a much more unforgiving reader than most, and I'll admit that is a me thing that I could probably work on.

L_S87

Yet both of the Waters have been seen by many to have the characteristics they are now showing... throughout the work... Kimmy has constantly been described as manipulative and treacherous... Josh has been viewed as a weak and gullible man. Surely it is the desire that the story live up to the standards of some neo Victorian morality tale that are at fault. KT has not introduced new and unexpected factors into the work... Everybody is vexed because there is no omniscient narrator to make Kimmy toe the line... or for Josh to manifest the mythical characteristics inherent in the fact that he possesses testicles... KT has been open about what might happen all along... We never know about what a character is essentially... we only know them by their actions and what they say... But everyone... once again is placing the onus on KT to... through the character Kimmy provide a resolution that is morally effective for the reader. You want it to turn out the way you find logical. I have never known reality to offer up a happy ever after... KT has done nothing illogical within the framework of this novel... She could only do that by being trite... which she never has been! The characters have not begun to change drastically... simply we don't know all the details of factors at work right now. I think the fact that you can imagine that KT has ruined her own work is not an indictment of that work or its author... The problem right now is our own impatience and impetuousness... and a feeling of entitlement... Josh has suffered from a constant and totally natural decline since the beginning of DITW... I have read this latest chapter four times and I can see different Kimmies than we are assuming her to be... My 'confession' was a bit disingenuous... it could be true, but until the bell tolls perhaps we should maybe not be so demanding... If it feels like torture to wait... we should remember it is a voluntary one... no one forced us to look over KT's shoulder... If she doesn't succeed in giving us what we want... It may well be our fault! KT's body of work does not merit our distrust! Our procrustean criticism is counter productive! Thank you for your concern and support... but we are all unreliable narrators. You're right I suppose... I haven't deceived myself!

Bill F Protagoras

That's my issue, Bill. You phrase it as "deceiving yourself", I see it as the characters being written such that they are who they are obviously, and logically, perceived to be. To then change that suddenly, for me, does not equal me deceiving myself, but simply a character who is no longer logically following who they are. You can change who they are, with time and effort, but otherwise the shift is too large and comes across as a mistake. That doesn't necessarily automatically ruin the ending, but it can if that same poor logic is carried throughout. For me, if Josh was meant to be "X", he should have been written that way throughout, or given ample time across multiple books to show a change of character. Otherwise, it comes across like a cheesy Hollywood ending where you get the *Surprise*!, it was all a dream or they weren't who you thought they were kind of ending. Which I hate. Now, that's just me, and some people like that sort of thing. But, if we get to the end and it still feels that way, then yeah, I feel like I owe it to KT to tell her that, for me, she ruined this. BUT! Before we go down that road, we have to get to the end. And while I've been very vocal in my dissatisfaction with how Josh is being treated here, ill also note were only roughly halfway through. A lot can change. I hope it does. Even if it means horror for Josh.

L_S87

I wish you luck. It seems to me many have begun to fret because what their earlier analyses would have predicted is about to happen... KT warned us she was gonna have fun yet there's quite a lot of whingey-whining sneaking into the end days. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Thank goodness KT knows what she's doing. It's the suspense that's killing me.

Bill F Protagoras

It seems that I have been kidding myself this whole time... Devlin was merely a symptom, not a cause. The Kimmy in this book is the quintessence of selfish cheating unbridled lust almost everybody else saw her as... She did not become an antihero, but rather an embodiment of deception, conspicuous consumption, shallowness and ambition for the sake of her own pride. She isn't hiding things to protect Josh, but apparently to protect her own reputation... to save face before her own family... to cover up even the existence of a grandchild from Josh's family. Hinting at some sort of reconciliation, but also clumsily seducing, and teasing her husband to bring him to heel... and just possibly hiding something fearfully sinister. How often has ignorance protected anyone? I'm not complaining about whether KT will write a good ending. I have no reservations about that. Rather I am afraid of how profoundly 'bad' her good ending will be, and how deeply I have managed to deceive myself... One thing I 'am' sure of, is that for reasons that now appear spurious, 'she' left Josh! And every assurance she gave him of being a changed woman now rattles or shakes, inside the hollow gourd of her aspiring affluence and glamour. All that's left is a broken man I hardly recognise... more than likely because my perception of his former character has been even more mistaken than that which I formed of his wife of yesteryear, Kimmy Waters... Of course, there's cuddly little Colleen with solicitous Hyun to care for her... but how optimistic should I even be about that?

Bill F Protagoras

You're probably not wrong JL. I just see it differently, hence my reticence. For me all these changes due to all the baggage, would require time. We've had a year, but nothing from Kimmy has worked to resolve any of the issues. It just doesn't come across as believable to me, but I appreciate that the story is okay and good for you. At least one of us is enjoying it to the full extent. For me, there were SO many options. This being the choice completely confounds me.

L_S87

I just think Devlin comes wrapped up in more baggage and torment than the father does. Yes, he mentioned the father was an a-hole to his parents, but as far as interactions with Keith Stone, they’re basically non-existent. So Kimmy working for/messing around/tormenting him with his lifelong bully? Yeah, he can’t abide. Kimmy working for/messing around/teasing him an old guy who maybe can’t always land the deal? I’d see how that would be something he might feel comfortable dabbling in the darkness with. It's wrapped up again in his low self worth in regard to Kimmy. Again a lot of that is her fault, but some of it is he looks at his own current state and can't get past: what does this beautiful, successful women with a rich, big dicked lover want in me? And a lot of that is internal self-loathing. It's shallow, but I can see how he'd seize on that revelation and hang onto it. Of course, I don’t suspect the reality with Keith Stone is anywhere close to how Kimmy is portraying it.

JL23

You're right, JL, that he generally has, though the last few times he didn't. But even when he accepted the sexual advances, he never accepted the relationship with Devlin as being plausible or okay. He never bent on that. After the sex he was always adamant that being with Devlin, working for him, was a no go for their marriage or Josh himself. He was acting the exact same way here with Keith Stone. And then flipped like a switch the instant the can't get it up narrative was trotted out. He even accepted it in his mind. That's not like Josh at all, imo. He fought way too much to *not* have that scenario to suddenly accept it for so specious a reasoning. That's my issue. It's not the sex, it's *why* the sex is occuring. If Josh was going to capitulate so easily for such a trite reason, he'd have never lasted the emotional onslaught Kimmy put on him to accept Devlin. Never. Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying Josh could never accept such a scenario, with time, but that the level of whiplash that we go from anger, betrayal, anxiety requiring meds and fear of being found out to "meh, I'm okay with this" is too much. I don't know what the final goal is here, because we still have a number of chapters to go, but it feels like the process is out of order and there's a lack of flow because of it.

L_S87

I would say Josh is more in character here than you think. In the end, he’s always generally capitulated to Kimmy’s advances. He hates, loves, and lusts after her “darkness” in equal measure. I don’t think falling in an icy lake would change that. I can see where he takes the revelation from the last chapter and runs with it. He wants a reason to be with Kimmy. His self-worth is kind of wrapped up in the concept that she still wants him. Just like a lot of her self-worth is wrapped up in him wanting her. That’s a large part of why I see they’re probably bad for each other.

JL23

It has me hooked, too, L_S, obviously. I don’t think we’ve had to wait this long ever for anything from Kimmy. It’s maddening! It’s been almost a one sided perspective this whole book, Josh’s side. Josh is not always the best narrator. He’s consistently negative, always expecting the worst, but to be fair after what’s happened to him I can’t blame him. The thing is that he keeps saying that he stayed away, and that he ran. Didn’t Kimmy leave him in the last book? She said she wasn’t leaving him, but leaving the apartment. They were separated for a year. Neither seemed to make any attempts to reconcile, in fact, Josh said that Kimmy went “radio silent.” I can’t blame him here for being so shocked that Kimmy wants him back, especially after she told him she’s sleeping with Devlin’s father. She appears to have it all, but yet she doesn’t. Kimmy is actually acting like herself. She always addressed Josh with in a certain “I’m better than you” way, unless she needed him or wanted something. I’m not saying that she doesn’t love him or value him. On the contrary, she needs him and wants him back as her husband. I believe that. But the dynamic between them was always Kimmy as the strong, resilient one, and Josh as the emotional, weakish one. WTF is she hiding? I feel like KT could write another book on Kimmy’s year away from Josh. I know a lot of people want this book down shed so KT can move on to other stuff, but I really hope she doesn’t gloss over Kimmy’s story. It’s been built up for so long now that some of us really want all those details. Her year sounds way more interesting than Josh’s. I want to know everything that happened to her. Anyway, until KT blesses us all with another chapter, all we can do is discuss and ruminate over what the hell is going on. I’m glad for this Patreon, that’s for sure. Lol

Kat

You're right, JL. While her attitude has shifted in ways not typical of her (being so stoic to some of the questions) the actions and shifting itself is very much on point for who Kimmy has typically been. Which I know is why most of us figure she's hiding something pretty big. (That and the lack of a POV from her, obviously). The question of what is being obscured is why we're all posting a billion times. I don't know. There's *so* much about this I dislike, for continuity and moral reasons. Yet. I do find it intriguing wondering what is going on with Kimmy. I doubt it will save anything for me, Josh's capitulation here for such a trite reason is idiotic, imo, but I still want to know what's behind the curtain because as much as I disagree with the path KT took here, the mysterious nature of it still has me hooked.

L_S87

While KT has done plenty of male only POV books, it would feel wrong for us to get this far down the road and then have nothing from her. While I dislike a lot of what's going on here, if I'm objective about it, the ending has a lot more "horror" feel to it if Kimmy's POV tells us a story different then the facade she's painted for Josh and now he's stuck in that fairy tale lie. Assuming she is. Josh has changed at the drop of a hat, so maybe she will too, and we'll have no more lies.

L_S87

Without her POV, we're literally in Josh's shoes. We'd have only Kimmy's words and actions to go by. Unless another character's POV, such as Hyun's or Keith's, is suddenly introduced.

Pete

I hope we get Kimmy’s POV. It would make this book’s ending incomplete without it, and very disappointing.

Kat

Agreed L_S87 that Kimmy loves Josh genuinely, but she's also selfish and not just a bit self-absorbed, and wants that love to exist within a certain framework: the one that works best for her. She's admitted that before. When she told Josh about the baby, she didn't even give a thought to the idea he might immediately recoil and question if he's the father. She was happy, so he should have been happy. She convinced herself Josh was the father, so he'd do the same thing. I see a bit of this in her actions here too. I think the way her actions vacillate from seemingly pushing him away only to try to draw him back shows her rational mind telling her not to pursue getting him back yet, but once that seems to be happening her selfish side, who needs Josh now in whatever way possible, takes over.

JL23

I can’t imagine we wouldn’t get something from her. We’ve gotten snippets through 8 chapters, sure we’ll get more. The POV’s tend to be focused one or the other for long stretches throughout the story. Whether we’ll like her POV, or trust it…that’s another story.

JL23

Part of the challenge here is that earlier in the series we were getting updates every couple of days. KT had a regular update schedule at a regular and known time. It made waiting a bit easier because you knew you wouldn't have to wait long and there was a specific time to check for uploads. These days, we're going 4, 5 or even 6 days between updates with no set time at all. So you're kinda left to stew for a bit of time wondering what's going on. That tends to lead us on all sorts of tangents. My current one is that I think Kimmy is being Kimmy. Meaning she *does* love Josh. But. She does what she has to do. That typically includes whatever it takes to make herself happy because she's a very selfish individual. Whether that happiness means ignoring her past mistakes and lying again to trap Josh or truly wanting to do it differently this time, and Stone is just a nasty roadblock she has yet to get out of her way, I don't know. Then of course, there's a million options in between.

L_S87

Well, from my POV, it would make it an even worse ending then it already seems to be? There's a lot we don't know, and while I'm miffed at what I feel are poor decisions, there's a billion ways this could go that would totally change my mind and have me eating crow. Not giving us Kimmy's POV would *definitely* not be one of those!

L_S87

I'm not. We've very rarely had Kimmy's point of view. It's almost always been difficult to obtain anything insightful.

Bill F Protagoras

We're assuming (myself included), that we'll get Kimmy's POV. But KT has the option of NOT providing that. And if she doesn't, what does that mean for our tale?

Pete

Josh is the perfect pater familias for the new family that brazen Kimberly has in mind... he is the beard for Hyun... The titular head to Kimmy's Alpha pride. If he will only play his role, he will get his slice of creamy Kimmy cake (and pie). For her happiness sacrificess must be made... of his own free will... first and foremost! It appears she wants Josh's seed to compete to make their children... She wants him to share in her success... which doesn't mean that she won't use him... Who knows maybe pride doesn't come before the fall... and Kimmy will see what she shall see... if you share in success, naturally you have to choke down the blowback too... and as I like to sing... "Something is happening here..." Another dream, or on trope nightmare, I suppose or guess... presented with perplexity... Why can't I just sit unquietly! And wait? This must be more difficult for you, KT. So much sound and fury accompanied by occasional drizzle... People rushing to judgement... it must seem! For what it's worth... in my opinion you haven't put a foot wrong yet. But what do I know?

Bill F Protagoras

Maybe these are just 2 people who are bad for each other? Maybe that’s the lesson? They love each other, and they have a child now, but probably they’re better off (and less destructive) apart. But I think they both get things from the other they can’t from anyone else, so it keeps leading them back into orbit around the other. Even if Josh knows he probably should move on, he can’t allow himself to. Even if Kimmy knows it’s probably better for Josh to move on from her, she can’t let him. They bring out the best, and the worst in each other. And maybe the worst now outweighs the best. But I don’t expect either to come to that conclusion.

JL23

I don’t think Kimmy’s plans are all legit, either. KT wouldn’t torture us like this for the ending to be so simple. Or would she? 🤔

Kat

Like you guys, I'm kinda in the waiting phase. I've mostly stopped speculating because the mold for what Josh is going to do appears to be set. That only really changes once we know what Kimmy is hiding. Assumimg she is. This could all be legit with zero to hide, it just doesn't feel that way because of how spastic she's acting. And lets face it, its Kimmy. It would take a minor, no major, miracle for her to tell the truth, all in one sitting, and leave nothing out. So we've basically got to wait for Josh to finish banging Kimmy and then we might finally get our answers. Kimmy's behavior. Why Hyun was full of dread. Whats truly going on with Keith. What is Kimmy's grand plan to fix all this.

L_S87

“Josh, I’ve never loved anyone else but you. Never.” Hyun, Colleen, Sophie. Her family. Her dead mother. How can you believe the claim that you are loved exclusively? When it would be monstrous if true? And a sham, if false. All these things shall I give thee, if thou shalt follow me... I shall deny thee nothing! All the days of our lives! To whom does she dedicate her time each day? And why?

Bill F Protagoras

Ann Donne died after giving John Donne twelve children.

Bill F Protagoras

"There is no penance due to innocence :"

Bill F Protagoras

They won’t be stopping. Josh can’t resist her. Thanks a lot, Josh! Because of your lack of self control we have wait even longer for answers. Lol

Kat

Assuming they actually consummate it this time. Maybe Josh starts asking these questions and stops...oh who am I kidding, that ain't happening now.

JL23

Yeah, I agree, my frustration level is at an all time high. The wait for these last chapters has been so hard. I keep thinking that it probably would have been a whole different experience reading the completed book. But then I’d miss out on the fun of chatting and griping about all the characters here. 🙂 I really hope we get a new chapter today, get the sex out of the way, so that we can find out Kimmy’s side of the story. Yeah, I just realized that the next chapter won’t hold any relief (well it might for some haha). We’re still going to be waiting for Kimmy’s POV a little longer. Argh…

Kat

I think it’s already weird that Kimmy moved Sophie and Hyun into the house, leased Hyun a car, went shopping for dining room tables with Hyun, and also bought Sophie an ice cream maker. Kimmy’s acting more like her mom than an aunt. Kimmy found out about Sophie’s excitement for an ice cream maker the first night Kimmy and Hyun were together. The night she found Josh spying on her in the parking lot when she went down to get the Devlin replica. Now they have baby Colleen. Is Sophie going to call her “little sister”?

Kat

To His Mistress Going to Bed COME, madam, come, all rest my powers defy ; Until I labour, I in labour lie. The foe ofttimes, having the foe in sight, Is tired with standing, though he never fight. Off with that girdle, like heaven’s zone glittering, But a far fairer world encompassing. Unpin that spangled breast-plate, which you wear, That th’ eyes of busy fools may be stopp’d there. Unlace yourself, for that harmonious chime Tells me from you that now it is bed-time. Off with that happy busk, which I envy, That still can be, and still can stand so nigh. Your gown going off such beauteous state reveals, As when from flowery meads th’ hill’s shadow steals. Off with your wiry coronet, and show The hairy diadems which on you do grow. Off with your hose and shoes ; then softly tread In this love’s hallow’d temple, this soft bed. In such white robes heaven’s angels used to be Revealed to men ; thou, angel, bring’st with thee A heaven-like Mahomet’s paradise ; and though Ill spirits walk in white, we easily know By this these angels from an evil sprite ; Those set our hairs, but these our flesh upright. Licence my roving hands, and let them go Before, behind, between, above, below. O, my America, my Newfoundland, My kingdom, safest when with one man mann’d, My mine of precious stones, my empery ; How am I blest in thus discovering thee ! To enter in these bonds, is to be free ; Then, where my hand is set, my soul shall be. Full nakedness ! All joys are due to thee ; As souls unbodied, bodies unclothed must be To taste whole joys. Gems which you women use Are like Atlanta’s ball cast in men’s views ; That, when a fool’s eye lighteth on a gem, His earthly soul might court that, not them. Like pictures, or like books’ gay coverings made For laymen, are all women thus array’d. Themselves are only mystic books, which we —Whom their imputed grace will dignify— Must see reveal’d. Then, since that I may know, As liberally as to thy midwife show Thyself ; cast all, yea, this white linen hence ; There is no penance due to innocence : To teach thee, I am naked first ; why then, What needst thou have more covering than a man? John Donne

Bill F Protagoras

Again, this is where it's frustrating as a reader knowing almost nothing about what has happened to Kimmy in the past year, how and why it happened, and what she is saying to Josh is truth, what is obfuscation cause she doesn't yet want to tell him the truth, and then what are just outright lies. I think reading this epilogue has brought the "chapter by chapter every couple of days" frustrations up to its highest level. It makes sense writing a book this way, you're building up tension and doubts that will ultimately pay off for the reader when they get 5-6 chapters ahead and the truth starts to be revealed. You get to it within a few minutes. When you're waiting several days for each chapter, it takes you a couple weeks to a month to get to that point. Nothing we can do about it, but it's especially acute with this book cause we know we're building to the ending. It probably would have been better to just wait until it was published and read it all in one shot like it's intended to be. That was happened with Jess/Pete, Nia/Geoff, Max/Maggie etc...we all read the whole thing at once. Too late for me to back out now and wait though lol. But I'd say just from my own personal enjoyment perspective, it would have better for me in hindsight to wait until everything was done to read this.

JL23

John Donne, Ann Donne, Undone.

Bill F Protagoras

And maybe the smooth shave wasn't at 'Keith's' insistence... Devlin likes to give his victim something to worry about. Also it would be a condition for taking her back... A sign of renewed submission!

Bill F Protagoras

Yes! Josh is bringing 'quick draw Mcgraw' to this fight!

Chris K

That soon!

Bill F Protagoras

He'll cum in about 30 seconds, and Kimmy will remind how long Devlin could last and say goodnight in disappointment. So, not long!

Chris K

When is Josh going to be alone long enough to disappear down the medication drain and gloomily recall... "I need a young man..." and have his 'paranoia' turn to thoughts of another Stone forever young forever hard and surely forever at her beck and call ready to do 'his' duty in between the sheets. After all, everything else she swore to do and NOT to do... she had undone and DONE without a by his leave or kiss his arse! Or the slightest explanation!

Bill F Protagoras

I'd like to think that a loving wife who wants her husband back would've asked to live in the house with her first, despite all that's happened. That should've been the olive branch. If he says no, the backup plan should've been the apartment as a peace offering and safe space (close, but not too close for now).

Chris K

"I feel the same way. About 40% of what happened in this series as a whole Josh doesn't even know about yet." Maybe more so and I think every detail would be telling for Josh. But of the vast sum of information Kimmy might presume to know about Josh she tends to prioritise it herself and flout detail. Their preciously hoarded shared love must contain many, if not a preponderance of blood red incompatibilities. Kimmy has taken the most frequented path to her own particular 'ambitious' and hedonistic goals... If I were Josh right now I would be fretting that I couldn't, in all good conscience, wish her bon voyage. Tolerance is a virtue but there comes a time when you are owed an explanation for old times' sake... Successful Kimmy might be afraid that by now her tawdry crash course in lying has gone astray... and turned her favourite dupe into a soothsayer. Are they sharing a baby... or is a special 'somebody' actually holding a hostage? And if not, might it not appear that way to a partial observer? "A Chinese finger trap is a gag toy used to play a practical joke on unsuspecting children and... adults." It seems from admittedly cursory observation that Josh would be the more likely parent to make sacrifices for 'their' child. According to Kimmy isn't submissive behaviour a character trait of his. Isn't it his compulsive kink? A shameful pleasure, he pervily denies himself! Didn't he wallow in it in the past? Like a pig in filth? Only too happy in his infantile masochism? Serving in his own limited yet vital way... the cupidity of an exigent mercantile congenial Venus in Furs... with a vested interest in his humble niche of her greater good. A minor aspect of her burgeoning side line in well endowed One percent mature gentlemen... A busy girl needs a hobby. Something to keep her tepid on the long dark necromantic winter nights... something to dig her nails into...

Bill F Protagoras

Yeah, by outing all that, you don't just upend Josh. You upend Hyun, Meyer and Sophie too. If it's something in the past, I think honestly, you leave it in the past. But...if she's still involved with Hyun like that, what a mess. But I can see it, Hyun has always felt like her comfort substitute if Josh was not there. She doesn't love Hyun, and Hyun would never be a party to her wickedness, but when she has needed some level of comfort, or distraction, someone to let her know it'll be OK, she's turned to Hyun. If that's still the case, I don't know how you resolve it without a lot of collateral damage. Meyer might not still be pining for Hyun, and he's joked about this possibility, but how would react to the reality of it, especially if Josh got back together with Kimmy. How would Sophie take that knowledge? What if Josh finds out and agrees to stay silent (or even participate) and then Meyer and/or Sophie find out? All that is such a mess it's almost why I hope we just leave it be and not even address it.

JL23

I agree with JL, that Kimmy built the apartment for Josh, so he’d be comfortable and close to Colleen. She hasn’t seen or spoken to him in ages, and probably didn’t want to assume he’d be okay with staying with her in the house. She didn’t even know if he’d accept Colleen as his own. I think she might want him to stay with her, but it’s going to have to come from him. I also don’t think the seduction was planned, but Kimmy resorting to what works with Josh to keep him from asking questions and leaving her. As for Hyun, I’d be okay with that staying secret, as long as they just stay friends. That secret has the capacity to blow up so many lives, most of all Sophie’s. Kimmy has already kept worse secrets from Josh. Hyun is also not out, so in telling Josh, she would be outing Hyun which is not cool.

Kat

L_S87 I guess I don't take Kimmy's actions with the apartment as her not wanting to be in the same bedroom as Josh. I've just been taking that as she doesn't feel like Josh would want that at the moment, or that she doesn't fell worthy of him still. Again, all speculation until we know more. Maybe she does have something going on with Hyun and wouldn't want Josh in the main house. But if he's there and something is going on between those 2, he'll find out anyway. Right now I'm working with the impression that the apartment was truly meant as an olive branch to Josh. She didn't feel he'd be comfortable staying with her, or she still doesn't feel worthy of that, but wanted to give him a way to stay at the house, be near Colleen and enjoy in her successes even if they're not currently together. Again, famous last words as a defender (somewhat) of Kimmy, but I truly don't think she intended the seduction path we've been going down the last 2 chapters coming into this big first encounter with him in a year. I think it happened in the moment, due to Josh's questions, the idea he might not actually take her up on the offer, and just being close to him and wanting to feel that deeper connection with him again. Even if "something" is holding her back from actually trying to earn him back yet. But I can't discount anything you think as not being possible. Feels like the Hyun stuff needs some kind of resolution, I just can't think of one that doesn't cause severe strife in multiple characters lives other than...she never reveals any of that to him. Probably not satisfying but I think it'd play true to me. Maybe this is cynical and dark of me, but sometimes secrets are fine in a relationship. And the revelation of certain ones only cause more heartbreak. In a way, I think the person may actually be acting in their own selfish self-interest: they unburden themselves, but it doesn't make anyone's lives around them better.

JL23

Did nobody else ask themselves why the image of the glistening pussy of a half naked supine asian body on top of sacks of fertilizer inside a shipping container might be sensitive material? Or further erotica in other containers?

Bill F Protagoras

The 2023 Global Slavery Index Report estimates that around 83,000 people in Cambodia are currently trapped in various forms of modern slavery.

Bill F Protagoras

"She can take the dark out of the night time And paint the day time black."

Bill F Protagoras

Yup, Mike! "I feel the same way. About 40% of what happened in this series as a whole Josh doesn't even know about yet." Maybe more so and I think every detail would be telling for Josh. But of the vast sum of information Kimmy might presume to know about Josh she tends to prioritise it herself and flout detail. Their preciously hoarded shared love must contain many, if not a preponderance of blood red incompatibilities. Kimmy has taken the most frequented path to her own particular 'ambitious' and hedonistic goals... If I were Josh right now I would be fretting that I couldn't, in all good conscience, wish her bon voyage. Tolerance is a virtue but there comes a time when you are owed an explanation for old times' sake... Successful Kimmy might be afraid that by now her tawdry crash course in lying has gone astray... and turned her favourite dupe into a soothsayer. Are they sharing a baby... or is a special 'somebody' actually holding a hostage? And if not, might it not appear that way to a partial observer? "A Chinese finger trap is a gag toy used to play a practical joke on unsuspecting children and... adults." It seems from admittedly cursory observation that Josh would be the more likely parent to make sacrifices for 'their' child. According to Kimmy isn't submissive behaviour a character trait of his. Isn't it his compulsive kink? A shameful pleasure, he pervily denies himself! Didn't he wallow in it in the past? Like a pig in filth? Only too happy in his infantile masochism? Serving in his own limited yet vital way... the cupidity of an exigent mercantile congenial Venus in Furs... with a vested interest in his humble niche of her greater good. A minor aspect of her burgeoning side line in well endowed One percent mature gentlemen... A busy girl needs a hobby. Something to keep her tepid on the long dark necromantic winter nights... something to dig her nails into...

Bill F Protagoras

My favourite was Dr. Van Nostrand, and his meat slicer. 😄

Kat

No one could explain what Vandelay Industries did either, so it fits.

JL23

The shipping container…a pivotal scene in the story. I wonder if Stone Brokerage exports diapers? It’s a Seinfeld reference + Elaine’s boyfriend Art Vandelay. Anyway, I still don’t understand what Stone Brokerage does. Lol

Kat

I think you guys forgot about the scene in the shipping container. They most definitely do imports/exports.

Chris K

Omfg 🤣 I get it, and you’re right.

Kat

Latex would make A LOT of sense for this story right? Actually though, very little latex has been used lol. I was going to make that joke but figured no one would get it.

JL23

Omg, JL, I think you watch all the same shows that I do, or at least I get all your references. Do you think Stone Brokerage imports chips or diapers? Maybe latex or matches? 😂😂😂 I also think finance when I read Brokerage. I have no knowledge of business, but I have so much knowledge about nothing. Get it? Lol

Kat

Yeah I think they do Kat. When I think "brokerage" I default to finance only, but I believe they are in the import/export business (like Vandelay Industries!) So it may just have been a week-long visit to sweatshops...I mean factories. It probably was just her trying to relay why she couldn't make the dumplings and hoped Josh understood. Lord knows we have enough unanswered to answer, probably is fine if that one doesn't lead anywhere.

JL23

As you say Kat, I was thinking just last night about how MANY unanswered questions and possibilities there are. KT could take this SO many different ways. I know it's possible to wrap this up in a single book (and I know that's what KT has said), but this "reset," and all the mysteries, could easily lay the foundation for several more.

Pete

Yeah, it's very possible that it was nothing more than an innocent business trip, but why did Kimmy mention it at dinner? Just to let Josh know that Hyun made the dumplings? Keith could take Kimmy to the Caymans, of course but what if for whatever reason he didn't want to be seen with her? I was recently in Thailand and it took something like 20 hrs to get there. The chances of being seen by somebody who knows them wouldn't be that high, probably. I don't know. I'm just looking back at everything trying to figure out where this is going next.

Bill H.

I hope we get another chapter soon with Kimmy’s POV. There can’t be many chapters left, but there’s still so many unanswered questions. Does anyone know how many chapters this book is supposed to have?

Kat

Doesn’t Stone Brokerage import stuff? Wasn’t that part of Devlin’s role with the company? Kimmy has his job now. Cambodia has become a place where a lot of stuff is manufactured cheaply. Maybe it was just that, a business trip? I would think if Stone was taking a young, attractive subordinate on a pleasure trip, wouldn’t Grand Cayman, or some island be a more appropriate place for romance?

Kat

It could be just a business trip. That's what we seem to be intended to think. But as I said in the comments to that chapter...Cambodia seems like an unlikely place to have week long business meetings. Its not typically at the top of places known in Asia for economic power. Also not a place that your billionaire boss is likely to take you for a "work trip." But there are no clues that meeting was for anything other than business, so it could just simply be the exposition used for Kimmy to relay why she was unable to make the dumplings herself.

JL23

I wonder if that trip to Cambodia Kimmy took the week before the housewarming is going to play a part in this drama? I went back to Book 1 and combed through every book for any references to Cambodia but couldn't find anything. I just have a feeling about this. Why did KT decide to mention a trip to Cambodia now? It just seems...weird.

Bill H.

It's possible a lot has happened to "harden" her in this last year. I still see the previous Kimmy when she gets to the point where she's imploring Josh to stay though. Again, unless that's an act too. It feels like maybe she has tried to put a wall up, even with Josh. Perhaps to protect him? But then she keeps peeking over it and trying to get him to engage with her, in whatever way she can. But yeah, I can't be 100% right now that all she's telling Josh is real.

JL23

That's an interesting point Bill. Kimmy may not even be the most reliable narrator of her own actions. She may have convinced herself she's doing something for a certain reason, but only cause she cant even admit the truth to herself. There are already so many things we know about her that Josh doesn't, and now we probably have another full year of things she's done, that both we and Josh don't know. Seems an awful big mountain to overcome, unless Josh is deciding to stick his head in the sand. Which may be the case. In these long form KT stories, we generally haven't gotten a truly dark ending. Sad and bittersweet ones, but not dark. So while my own personal preference tends way more to wanting a "lighter" ending, it could be interesting to see how KT envisions a dark, or "bad" ending for a main character(s).

JL23

I think KT may have taken Kimmy to a point where even first person narrative or stream of consciousness would not convince us of her true intentions or beliefs without concrete evidence, or uncontrovertible proofs, or actions speaking louder than words. Nonetheless previous works have proven KT capable of such a feat. The question is where does KT want to take this story with a denouement that moves us and/or maybe gives the reader catharsis... I would favour mimesis over my personal likes or dislikes... I appreciate the lengths to which she has already gone for us in this impressive work.

Bill F Protagoras

Lol Pete!! But something tells me Kimmy has an ace up her sleeve she’s waiting to play. I hope.

Bill H.

Yup, Kat she seems bereft of sincerity and ipso facto credibility. It's almost as though we are feeling claustrophobic because of the ever faster approaching outcome... and the concomitant decreasing potential... the long goodbye...

Bill F Protagoras

Now, as a consequence, we have changed too...

Bill F Protagoras

It’s like she’s an AI Kimmy. She looks the same. She sounds the same, but there’s something off about her.

Kat

The strange thing for me is that Kimmy feels like a different person, less trustworthy, more mercenary in a soft shiny flesh coloured form-fitting body armour... as though she has had a total personality overhaul, a physical do over and a hands off makeover. She is as unsure of who she is to Josh, as he is. It's as though she has briefed herself on how to act with him from memories that are no longer in sync. Her new persona is drifting just out of reach from him. Her professional confident business persona is trying to engage with the damaged domestic past. And is confused about how to become a part of each other's life anew. So much has changed... gone too far... protecting Josh from every menace including the tainted self she glimpses wild eyed in unpredictable reflective surface facets of her job, and the new home she had always dreamed of having with him and their child. Or so she had thought before SHE made the difficult choice, to be the one to leave home instead of Josh. To forestall. To pre-empt. To for a time, turn her back on him. To flee. Instead of him... To abandon... Permitting herself to commit to being abandoned. To bringing about a new uncertain future... paving her way with the best of intentions. With strictly limited options... KT warned us characters would've changed...

Bill F Protagoras

I keep hoping the next chapter will be THE chapter! And I know all of this is deliberate, making us rapid for the final reveal. I can’t wait to hear from Kimmy. Frustrations aside, the writing is so well done, it’s almost enough to make me patient, but on the flip side the writing is so good it’s making me impatient for more. Lol

Kat

Kat, always more questions after every chapter. I’ve come to expect that around every corner is another one. So I’m trying to just go with it and not raise my expectations that the next chapter will be THE chapter. I do wonder if we might turn a corner and get hit by the metaphorical truck though like”I didn’t see that coming.”

Tracey52

A "Boogie Nights" outcome. I hadn't considered that, RCH. (Edit: In the movie Boogie Nights, there's a character whose wife is always off fucking another man. Late in the movie, the guy walks into a party, and into a bedroom where his wife is mid-session with a bloke, and promptly shoots her in the head. (At least, as I recall). It's...very brutal.

Pete

Wow been awhile since I've seen such a reaction to a chapter! This is a hard one to call. Josh has been in morning over the loss of the love of his life! It's why he fell apart and the whole motor cycle trip. Josh had the luxury to fall apart. Kimmy is a mom she has to maintain for her child. Kimmy's in a whole different head space. Yes, she is a major tool for what she did to Josh. Overriding all that is still the responsibility for Colleen. Kimmy lost a baby once and that really can fuck you up. Kimmy, know Colleen will be better of with Josh in her life. I don't think that at anytime Kimmy was endanger of falling in love with Devlin(I could be wrong). The deception and not having her husband on board with her sports fucking Devlin is the main issue. Kimmy knows this and has ask for forgiveness. Josh still seems to have a kink for sharing Kimmy. We'll have to see where the next chapter leads. Josh could still wrap his hands around her neck and squeeze! That would be a dark ending! Not that I'd want that but could happen.

RCH

JL, she 'seems' sincere, I agree. Bill, if Josh doesn't want to be a cuckold, and Keith truly has Kimmy by the tits, then this may truly be a "stuck between a rock and a hard cock" situation.

Pete

You can definitely read into the idea that Kimmy may have some kind of arrangement with Keith she doesn't really want. Maybe she was trying to hide that from Josh, but now is trying to take advantage of one little piece of it to make him stay with her. I guess I picked up on the casual way she chuckled and that Josh picked up "amusement" in her eyes before she tells him about Keith. I didn't read that as her chuckling that she was conning Josh with this, I took that chuckle as dismissive and derisive toward Keith. But again, we know Kimmy is a great actress when she wants to be. She can put a mask on to taunt him, but thus far when she's actually showing him emotion, it's genuine. So I believe she's honest with all the other stuff like he does. Maybe Kimmy is trying to give him this little piece of truth as to what's really happening with Keith to make him feel better about staying and being with her. Until she can figure a way out of the rest of it. If she actually is conning him on everything, not just the sexual prowess, then that is really, really bad news for Josh.

JL23

Good point again, Pete. I think, though if Josh doesn't want a cuckold relationship he has to at some point demand she stop with Keith. But we need to know what kind of deal, if any Kimmy made with Stone, Sr. "And suddenly the idea of Kimmy having sex with Keith Stone didn’t seem so surreal or so terrible. It seemed like everything was fitting back into place." This sounds like Josh might be at least open to a cuckold relationship.

Bill H.

I never even thought about that, Chris! Wow!

Bill H.

Good point, Pete. I wondered how Hyun will feel if Josh moves back into the main house?

Bill H.

I agree on #4: Kimmy needed to say that. On #3, there may be dire consequences if Kimmy leaves Keith; ones that might turn Josh's stomach much more than watching Devlin and Kimmy did. e.g. What if doing so means Keith presses charges, and Colleen likely ends up without her own mother for several years? I think we need to know more about Keith and Kimmy before I'm sure I want Josh to put his foot down about that.

Pete

Well, this took an unexpected turn, at least for me. I had resigned myself to a dark ending, especially after learning what the title of the last chapter refers to. I had been looking for a few key things for Josh and Kimmy, especially Kimmy, to say to each other but it never happened. Until, this chapter. There were several quotes that had me smiling. Josh: “You want me around because if I wasn’t around you worry people might think you’re a failure.” Kimmy: “That’s true,” she said, nodding, eyes wet. “I would think that. It doesn’t mean I don’t want you around for other reasons.” Josh: “Like what? What is it that Keith fucking Stone can’t give you that I can?” Kimmy shook her head in that way that people do when they knew so much more than you, chuckling now and stooping to retrieve her robe from the foot of the bed. She lifted it, poised like she would don it, but then holding it to her chest and staring at him. Her eyes shone wet, but there was something else there, something sparkling amongst the dullness she’d shown him with those eyes since he’d arrived. She said, “He can’t always get it up.” This shocked me as much as it did Josh. I wasn’t convinced she was having sex with Stone, Sr. I hoped she wasn’t but this proves to me that she was/is. My mood started to sink until I kept reading. Josh: “He what?” Kimmy: “He’s not reliable, Josh. How about that?” Kimmy raised her chin, unafraid. “Yeah. He can’t get it up.” Josh stepped into her space, the two of them eye to eye. She said, “What if I need you for your dick?” I thought that Josh might get offended and run away when Kimmy said this, but he didn’t. **** “You don’t have to sit here,” Kimmy said, nodding her chin to the window. “It’s your house. Take any room you want.” He said, “What if I want the bedroom?” “Take it,” she said. “Kick me out. I’ll stay here. If it means you’re in Colleen’s life—in my life—this room is where I’ll stay.” I don’t think that Kimmy understood what Josh meant by asking about her bedroom. I read it to mean, “I want us to share the bedroom as husband and wife.” ****** “You’re with another man,” he said. “I’m not with him, Josh,” she said. I definitely think she’s having sex with Keith as part of a deal she made with him to keep herself out of jail. I’m sure now that it has nothing to do with any attraction she has for Keith Stone. There's no romance, at least from her, it’s strictly a business arrangement. Now, Keith may feel differently. He may have feelings for her but it's clear to me that Kimmy doesn't have feelings for Stone, Sr. I don’t think Kimmy is lying. She needs to come clean with Josh about the deal, whatever it is. How long is it for? Can she get out of it? I want Josh to tell her, “No more with Keith. I don’t want you to see him again. That stops now.” Is this even possible, though? We still don’t know the details of the deal she made with Keith. Kimmy needs some kind of leverage she can use on Keith. Something she can use if he doesn’t let her out of whatever deal they have. She might need something she can use against Devlin, too. Josh needs to know what the whole deal Kimmy has with Keith is, regardless. ******** “I’ve missed you so much,” she said, and once again he believed her. “I need you, Josh. I need you.” “You just need a hard dick,” he growled, loving the way Kimmy could rob him of reason, flood his senses with the darkest syrup. “I do,” she gasped. “I need my husband’s hard dick so bad, Josh.” “He can’t get it up?” Kimmy sighed and gasped, bit her lower lip. She moaned, then whispered, “He can fuck with it, but it’s limp. It’s big but it’s floppy, Josh. I need a young man. I need my husband. I need the man I fucking love.” “You don’t love him?” “Josh, I’ve never loved anyone else but you. Never.” Finally. This is what I’ve been waiting for Kimmy to say. Again, I don’t think she’s lying. I think she’s telling the truth. But, we’ll see…

Bill H.

Lol

Kat

Oh, I myself have been terrible at predictions. I don't know much about my ancestry, but DITW has definitively confirmed that it does NOT include Nostradamus.

Pete

Who knows anymore? Can you tell that I’m frustrated? This last chapter, while engaging, left me with more questions than answers. It’s driving me crazy.

Kat

There are so many unanswered questions, and I fear that those answers won’t be forthcoming. Without some of them, I know I’m going to be really bummed if the book ends this way. How many chapters are left? Is there even enough time left? If Kimmy is in a relationship with Stone, is she free to leave? What is the relationship? Does her job depend on it? Why was she not wearing her ring in the photo with Stone? Does he know she’s still legally married? Who else knows about this relationship? Does Devlin know? Is Kimmy’s family aware of it? Do they know she and Josh are separated? How did she explain Josh’s absence at Colleen’s birth? Who did Kimmy even invite to this housewarming party? In a previous chapter, it was said that Josh’s own mom didn’t know that she was now a grandma. I’m so puzzled how these two could have a baby and have those details not get back to Josh’s parents. I know I said that I’ve given up on trying to figure anything out, but this story is driving me crazy. Being with Stone is one thing, but telling Josh that he “can’t get it up” reliably means that he has at one time. Why did Kimmy think that telling Josh this was the right way to win him back? Why is Josh suddenly so okay with his wife stripping and sexing up another Stone? The Josh from the last book would be out of there and throwing up in his car. I’m just so bothered by all of this. 😑

Kat

I do wonder if Hyun knows about Keith, and if so, how much detail she knows. Is Kimmy keeping secrets from her, the way she did from Josh? Or is Kimmy being more honest with Hyun?

Pete

We just need something, anything from Kimmy, to have at least some idea of what's going on. As others have said, the fact it's being kept from us seems to indicate there's a bigger explanation afoot to what Kimmy has been up to. And where she is now exactly. Everything in this chapter came out of left field. The way Josh interpreted Kimmy's reactions when she mentioned Keith's "performance" issues made it seem like that was actually the truth, and kind of speaks to maybe there is some kind of "arrangement" with the father. But we just don't know, and she could easily be lying or embellishing things.

JL23

Anything new improved Kimmy declaims with such grandiose self-confidence cannot be accepted without verification. The Waters have been separate entities for over a year now. In Josh's painful, alienated awareness Kimmy's love has been less than a four letter word... Sorry... overlooked wank... Definitely no effort toward reconciliation... all unilateral wants and needs... no hostage negotiation... conflict resolution... or any of that emotional bollox. Nevermind the quality feel the width. New K is so experienced and sophisticated. No wonder she has so many friends... beauty is truth as I forget his name once said. Ask me no questions... I'll tell you no lies. Wants. Needs... She wanted to fix things and keep poor Josh safe. A progress report would be a good place to start... Clarification not obfuscation! A bit of smooth talk before she asks him to suck her dick... or taste another guy's loveless spunk.

Bill F Protagoras

I’m of that opinion, too, that Kimmy is making up some of the stuff with Keith. I just don’t know how you get there from where we left her in Book 14. She was pregnant at the time, too. Was she sleeping with him while pregnant? After you have a baby, most women don’t have much of a sex drive for a while. I can’t imagine starting a new sexual relationship, with your boss nonetheless, when you’re post partum. How old is Colleen? Isn’t she around 6 months old? And Kimmy is still nursing her, too. This isn’t exactly dating material, in my opinion. Sure, she has Hyun, her live in slave, to help out with everything, but when you’re post partum, dating is the last thing on your mind. Now, we know Kimmy is hyper sexual, so she probably differed from this, but I just find the whole story far fetched. Keith is also Devlin’s dad, Josh’s bully’s dad. Going back to the original question, how could Kimmy think being with Keith, limp dick or not, would help her to get Josh back? I’ve kind of given up trying to figure out what’s going on. We need Kimmy’s POV. Trying to figure this stuff out relying only on Josh is pointless. I’m hoping KT pulls out something to make this all make sense. I’m going to be so disappointed if the way we’re going is how the story ends.

Kat

I’ve given up trying to figure out what’s going on. The “can’t get it up” yesterday was the mic drop for me. Like what? I’m still in shock. 🎤🫢

Kat

I generally agree you're right, JL, but in this case, Josh's capitulation felt blindingly predictable to me based on the initial setup. Yes, some of the details, like Keith, are not something I would have ever assumed likely, but the overall jist? Yeah, I saw it, was what fed my irritation. Hopefully KT has something special in store for us so this doesn't just turn into Josh ho hum accepting this and our final chapter is him and Kimmy a few years down the road, happy happy like none of this matters, while Keith is still in the picture. THAT I find unlikely, but it is sort of a standard KT ending for them to get back together and the consequences to fall away as mere annoyances.

L_S87

Oh yeah, and I think we run with things like when she likes a post. I certainly do, but now it just feels like that's almost her version of a pat on the head that Josh accused Kimmy of..."oh isn't that cute you think that's what going on..." 😃 After all, we speculated on a 100 different things, and none of us thought for a second Kimmy was going to pull out the "Keith can't get it up" card. So we speculate now on what that all means, and we'll all be wrong come the next chapter. I've accepted that. The speculation is what I do to keep engaged and interested in between chapters. I never really expect I'll be anywhere in the vicinity of correct, and I'm OK with that.

JL23

Your right, they can't live with each other. She offered him any room or her banishment, yet never a shared room. Funny how that was never on the table! Lol.

Chris K

I'm not sure he's happy to be a cuck, it's more he can't resist Kimmy. Even if he hates, he needs her. And she needs him. He seems to be more "into" this new idea Kimmy has introduced, there doesn't appear to be as much self loathing as he felt when she was seducing him with tales of Keith's prowess. I'm just wondering if a "dark" ending we may be building to is a story of 2 people who can't live without each other, but can't live with each other without incinerating every other relationship in their lives. Again, just more speculation, I am always wrong. But I could see this ending where its just Kimmy, Josh (with Colleen), and everyone else they cared about...Karina, Sophie, Hyun, Meyer...have written them off. But maybe that's enough for them. I'd find it sad, but maybe as long as they're together, that's all they need.

JL23

Well like, was he scared only about the sex Devlin and Keith were giving her or the fact they might steal her away? Now he knows she won't be stolen, he's all good with all of it? Is what it took to get him on board?

Chris K

What I meant wasn't him being an asshole necessarily, but playing along like he did in the hotel to get more info. So he can make his own decision, instead of Kimmy says, Kimmy gets

Chris K

Making prediction is often playing into KT's hands. She doesn't have us hanging around to get under her feet...

Bill F Protagoras

You know, I would hate that Josh was turned into that kind of an asshole... But at least it wouldn't be predictable or boring!

L_S87

Is Kimmy going to continue swanning around like she owns the place and wielding her regrets like stilettos?

Bill F Protagoras

I think it was Kimmy telling Josh that Keith couldn’t get it up. I don’t know?

Andrew Mellein

Maybe. Maybe Josh is just playing Kimmy the way she's always played him. That would be a great twist.

Chris K

After reading this chapter then some of the comments, it seems to me none of us are really great and figuring out what KT will write next. Of course, that’s true of a good writer. Then, again, will she be as predictable as others have accused her. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. Oh, yeah, that brings us back to the previous affirmation. Can’t wait to see? A good writer?

Randy

Even if she is making up the Keith stuff, why is Josh all too sudden happy to be a cuck just like that?

Chris K

As I slept on it, the more I started to think it possible everything she’s telling about Keith isn’t real. I think she’s being honest at the beginning when she says “I went too far” and back to she still doesn’t deserve Josh, and she’ll take him in her life any way she can, she just can’t stand the thought of him leaving. I think she’s also honest when she says she wants him to have everything she has, and everything he could want. So perhaps all the dirty talk around Keith is to show him that she’ll play it anyway he wants and make it hot for him. You want to think Keith has a horse cock and pounds me into the mattress like his son? Ok I can do that. No, that doesn’t work…well how about he can’t always get it up and a I need a real man like you to fuck me? I can do that too. Maybe all of this is a show for him, prove no one else can, or his willing to be what he needs. The first part also indicates she still feels unworthy of him, which hints at her still involved in things, or having done things she’s not proud of. Things she feels Josh can’t accept, but being selfish and still needing him, wants him to either not now or overlook. Could be the job and the Stones, but maybe that’s where Hyun comes in. I’ve never quite seen how she could ever explain it in a way he’d be OK with. But maybe living there he’s going to discover it, maybe even get dragged into it himself? Maybe it explains why Meyer needed the broken arm “now.” Maybe he ultimately finds out too, and also that Josh knew (or worse, became a part of it) and didn’t tell him. Maybe a punch is really coming to Josh. I’d hate a scenario where Josh is alienated from his cousin and best friend, but maybe a dark ending with them together is one where they allow their lusts to alienate them from everyone who cared about them. Man, that’s too dark for this early though. Really hope it isn’t that.

JL23

Exactly right on the no meaningful explanation to reinforce their bond, to fix what came before. Even at the beginning of this chapter, Josh pushed back on Kimmy for how "sudden" this is. Yet were expected to believe Keith Stones sometimes impotence solves this problem? Josh didn't even react to that. Because what Kimmy is saying is that she's had sex with him multiple times and he can't *always* get it up. That implies that *sometimes* he can. How does Kimmy feel about those times?? Why wouldn't Josh ask about that? We're basically expected to believe that Keith Stone's sometimes limp dick is the panacea to solve everything and that's why Josh is now okay with having sex with Kimmy? Really???

L_S87

I feel the same way. About 40% of what happened in this series as a whole Josh doesn't even know about yet. For all that to maybe get brought to light in the epilogue is a little strange and a little cheap in it's explanation. Neither of the characters grew up in a meaningful way to reinforce their bond because they don't really have one. I guess a lot of this story is going to be left unsaid, and it is just a simple cuckold story. The re-read should be a lot shorter when I know what to skip or leave out all together.

Chris K

Nor First Nations, but I didn't want o be pointing an accusatory finger at world leaders... They're so susceptible!

Bill F Protagoras

Lol! Butch...that doesn't apply to Canadians Bill

Chris K

After time to contemplate this, I think one of my biggest challenges is how predictable this feels. For a series that was so different for so much of it, this sort of cookie cutter ending where poor, weak Josh just can't live without Kimmy feels.. wrong. So much struggle for literally no change in circumstances. Even if what Kimmy says about Keith is a total fabrication, it's still Kimmy lying and manipulating, ad nauseum. When KT posted the very first chapter, in my head I called this as the eventual outcome. Its why I came up with and pushed so many different options, wildly speculating on so many options because I wanted something different, something new. Something befitting the epic nature of all that had come before. Not something so predictable. Part of why i felt SO down on this was because in my heart, I felt Josh weakly falling into bed with Kimmy again because he just couldn't live without her was a 99.9% likely eventuality. For me, that presents a problem because it's B O R I N G. With SO many options before us, to immediately burn Karina as an afterthought, to have all of Josh's struggles be so meaningless because Kimmy just flaps her lips until Josh gives in and has sex? We've done that before, multiple times, in this series. The idea that everything gets washed away with a simple sentence of "Keith Stone didn't seem so surreal or terrible" as if all the pain and anguish Kimmy heaped on him before doesn't matter because of *that*? I just don't get it. It feels like such a wasted opportunity to be unique instead of replacing it with something so bog standard. Even if there's something momentous behind Kimmy's actions and why she's acting so odd, it doesn't really change how predictable Josh's capitulation comes across. Or how strange it is that so much is ignored. I hope with all my heart that the next few chapters prove me wrong. I need this story to be something more than years of unique experiences followed by something that feels like it book ends almost every other series.

L_S87

Reliable Josh! His own epithet at last!

Bill F Protagoras

Kat, I was thinking the same thing. He's 56, but plenty of guys are very virile at that age. And, him being a powerful man, plus having provided the genes for Devlin's size and musculature. While it's certainly possible he's impotent, it just feels unlikely. And even if we did sometimes struggle with that, as you say, there are plenty of good pills for that sort of thing. He'd pop them daily if need be, I'd think, if only to mask his weakness.

Pete

"Thus they in mutual accusation spent The fruitless hours, but neither self-condemning, And of thir vain contest appeer'd no end."

Bill F Protagoras

Indisputable, Glaucon ! True grit! Pathetic or heroic but only knowable in the long run!

Bill F Protagoras

Oh, Chris, what reason would she possibly have to lie!

Bill F Protagoras

I no longer know, Kat, but I fervently hope she loves Josh, because he, at least, deserves it.

Bill F Protagoras

Plenty... you know like, but to a much lesser extent obviously, people who survive concentration camps, torture and other sustained trauma. You people across the pond are so much more butch than us effete inhabitants of other continents. It took a moment when we weren't watching for him to have a 'breakdown'.

Bill F Protagoras

No I am not. That definitely feels too convenient to me.

JL23

Honestly, when I started reading this book (a dark, bully, cuckold book) I thought that’s how it was going to go, that Josh was just going to succumb to the inevitability of Devlin besting him. I actually held off starting this one for a while because the bully tag seemed to be too harsh for me. I’d never read anything in this genre before I found KT. That’s why I’ve said that this book is so much more than the hashtags. It would have been easier to accept Kimmy with Devlin, but being with his dad just feels off and forced and plain weird.

Kat

I hope KT somehow address it.

Andrew Mellein

Are we all really taking Kimmys word that Devlin is in Vancouver?

Chris K

It’s hilarious. 😂😂😂😂😂

Kat

All pertinent questions, Kat.

Bill F Protagoras

I hope you’re right. I think it’s suspicious that if it’s true that Keith “can’t get it up” for Kimmy, why isn’t taking something for it? Powerful, rich man like him being all limp for Kimmy? Letting a subordinate know he has problems getting hard? Doesn’t sound like the father of conceited, big dick Devlin Stone, at all. The one thing I’m sure about is that Kimmy wants Josh back. I believe that she loves him and needs him, not just for Colleen, but for herself, as well.

Kat

Plot twist: Keith is cuckold. There are cameras in love shack! 🤫

Chris K

I'm all for it, Pete... I think Hyun and Josh would make great allies. A great counter part to Kimmy's indecency. Also I think Hyun would be a stabilising force after the various epic hells Kimmy has dragged a protesting Josh through. And Sophie would have two doting dads. If Josh divorced Kimmy and married Hyun it would rankle so much.

Bill F Protagoras

Absolutely! Ask some fucking questions please!

Chris K

Check ✔️

Chris K

It bothers me, too, LS. What was the point of making Josh nearly die, and then have a mental breakdown if he’s just going to be okay staying with Kimmy while she cucks him on the side with his bully’s dad?

Kat

I want to know what the relationship with Stone is. Is Kimmy free to leave, or is she tied to him to keep herself out of trouble?

Kat

Keith Stone! Now there's another promising POV Avenue.

Bill F Protagoras

Omg, Pete, this interface drives me nuts! It’s so hard to find new comments, especially when there are so many.

Kat

“Take it,” she said. “Kick me out. I’ll stay here. If it means you’re in Colleen’s life—in my life—this room is where I’ll stay.” Do it! Call her motherfucking bluff! Read everything you can find. Nose and spy... fill every blank the uptight controlling bitch has left us with!

Bill F Protagoras

I don’t know if I buy that Keith Stone “can’t get it up.” He’s a billionaire who I’m sure can have any woman he wants. Why isn’t he taking Viagra or something? It’s easy to get. I mean, he has a young, attractive, smart and willing woman in Kimmy. Why wouldn’t he just take a pill? If he’s as conceited as Devlin is about his masculinity, why would he be getting involved with Kimmy if he can’t get hard? Sounds suspicious. That’s a really personal thing that you’d think he wouldn’t want to divulge to a subordinate. Could be humiliating, too, for a powerful man like Stone.

Kat

I guess there is another explanation, one we considered last chapter. She isn’t at all involved with Keith Stone other than working for him. And all this is her trying to figure how out to get Josh to stay, and to be with her. She went to taunting him about Keith being hung and everything he’s not, playing into those previous kinks. And now that it didn’t work, she’s moved to the opposite tactic, making it seem like he’s not a great lover. Still not sure that is satisfying or explains a lot of things, but it could be what’s going on here. She just wants Josh back, in whatever way he’s willing to be. She wants to be with him fully, but if he couldn’t handle that, she’d take him living on the property, seeing him be a dad to Colleen, and interacting with her at least somewhat. It could explain why she boomerangs back and forth between emotions. Between telling Josh she doesn’t deserve him, he shouldn’t feel anything for her, but just not to abandon her fully, to trying to seduce him again. She still sees the opening to be together with him, he leaves that door open just enough, that she’s trying anything to get him to walk through it. I can make that make sense, in just about every way but for her meek nod when Josh asks if she’s fucking him. The entire idea going in for Kimmy was to make a gesture to Josh to have him feel comfortable being there. With the idea that maybe over time he’d trust her enough to be with her again. Or that she could earn that. As long as he was there, she’d still have a chance. And she could feel good about the fact at the very least Josh was able to share in all the things she had, their daughter and her successes. Only Josh appeared ready to bolt, so she needed something to keep him. Even if he still hated her, she knew he still lusted after some of what they had, so she played to that in the moment. Again, the only thing it doesn’t explain is why she had that reaction to his question about Keith. But maybe she already sensed he wasn’t going to go for it, for just living in the apartment, and buying the idea she wasn’t sleeping with Keith. That even if she said “no, I’m not”, he wouldn’t ever believe it. Even if that was actually the truth. So she’s offering that possibility to him, in whatever he can accept it right now, as a way to have him stay and be with her. Unlikely? Yes. But at this point so is everything else lol.

JL23

Good catch, Bill. It's probably safe to say that "love" has more definitions than a cat has lives. I should have been more specific. I did mean romantic love, as in Kimmy maybe wanting to be in concurrent sexual and romantic romantic partnerships with both Josh and Hyun. And her maybe already being in such with Hyun. To my understanding, that's one (of many) permutations of polyamory. Multiple romantic partners, including or excluding sex, with or without some sort of hierarchy.

Pete

Recreation for the tropes! Shaved! Shaved! Shaved at last!

Bill F Protagoras

"Someone walked a Scottie dog on a leash past her house."

Bill F Protagoras

Ohhhhh. Good catch, Andrew! I had forgotten/missed that open loop, entirely. If they lied about it, then so be it. But if they told the truth? That's a Pandora's Box. It reminds me of the long-lingering (still lingering?) uncertainty about whether the very first chapter of this saga was drunken delusion or reality.

Pete

Of course she loves them both! The word love is pretty vague. Hyun provides the staple loyal love Kimmy requires... since she grew addicted to rummaging around in Joshy's head... and breaking things.

Bill F Protagoras

"broke his heart and broke his trust like a china plate on a granite floor."

Bill F Protagoras

“You just want your daughter’s father around so your daughter won’t hate you.” Nice one!

Bill F Protagoras

"The sexually depraved woman he’d married." An epiphany?

Bill F Protagoras

Ah, yes, "Devlin in Winter" has a certain cachet, n'est-ce pas?

Donkatsu

Just logic... but without a husband a cuckolding cheat cannot raise another's get in the family nest. Also having a husband is an easy way to give true significance to betrayal. I could continue, but who cares... the hour is getting late!

Bill F Protagoras

🤣🤣🤣 My cheeks are starting to hurt.

Pete

You're not wrong about needing Kimmy's POV, Kat. I feel like we're missing half the story because one half of the equation is being kept from us over and over. I get it, but just because I get it doesn't mean I have to agree with it or like it. It feels gimmicky to me. As to the other, thats my real issue. If we vanished a few books and then simply had a book where Kimmy maneuvered and manipulated Josh into accepting Devlin, I would have been fine with it. Because at that point, it would have made sense. It would have been an unlikable horror ending, but true to the storyline and characters, for the most part. It would have never been my favorite (I like sappy endings too much), but definitely an outstanding literary piece. This? Its convoluted, contrived and confusing. Hopefully KT manages to find some way to right this listing ship.

L_S87

I was thinking perhaps that Kimmy loves both Hyun and Josh. But I haven't seen polyamory in a KT novel yet, Kat. So I'll assume the romantic outcome will ally with the Highlander battle cry. What was it, now? Oh, yes: "There can be only one!"

Pete

🤣🤣🤣 Ohhhhh. I was slow to pick up on the word "waddled." And what it implies. 😂

Pete

I think KT is really good at writing the POVs of these kinds of characters in a way that shows how they don't see their own patterns, or how they internally gloss over the ways they hurt others.

Glaucon

No, you're 100% right on that, Pete. Patreons interface for this stuff is kinda awful.

L_S87

I will settle for some Hyun to give me a better grasp of the truth. Or Kimmy's family. Even an interior monologue of Devlin in 'exile.' Any of the many 'minor' characters. No longer looking for title references... a thankless task... amongst others.

Bill F Protagoras

Bill, I'm fully open to being persuaded, but Josh having "always [been] copiously endowed with true grit" surprises me. Are there moments with Josh that convince you of this? (or was that sarcasm?)

Pete

What's one more secret? Colleen has great parents. A pill popping alcoholic dead beat for a dad. A size queen prostitute absentee mom, who couldn't anal birth her fast enough to jet across the world. Forget about it!

Chris K

Hyun can't feed her desire to be bad. Josh can. It's harsh, but for Kimmy, Hyun is just a substitute for when Josh isn't present. She can give her comfort, but she can't feed the kink like Josh does. And in the end, that's not enough for Kimmy.

JL23

Josh's character took a nosedive in one book. What happened to the Josh who threw chairs.

Andrew Mellein

I wonder if will ever be answered if Josh ever whispered in Amy's ear for Devlin to fuck Kimmy or if they lied? That question seems to have been abandoned.

Andrew Mellein

We need Kimmy’s POV. We’re still missing a huge part of the story. It’s difficult, I know, to see these characters act in ways that totally invalidate the past couple books.

Kat

That’s what I thought, too. Is she basically selling her body for power and money and to stay out of jail? If he can’t “get it up” what is in it for her?

Kat

😂😂😂😂 Waddled off 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Kat

On an unrelated topic, we had Good Taste (Fine Taste) for dinner tonight. They had a special where you got free chicken wings, the kind that Kimmy and Josh used to love. I can attest that they are delicious, but very greasy. 🤤 😂

Kat

Am I alone in wishing this Patreon interface did a better job of tracking and segmenting our discussions? And making it easier to find brand new posts we haven't read yet? I'm thinking of Discord, Reddit, or other good discussion boards, where it feels easier to find, discern, and respond to individual comments, and ideas. I blame it on you all, really. If you all weren't so damn entertaining, provocative, and inspiring, this wouldn't frustrate me so much! 😜

Pete

🤣

Kat

Omfg! 😂 Rubbery whopper…🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. Thanks for the levity.

Kat

Keely to the rescue! Shes so good at that.

L_S87

I think Hyun has become her nanny/housekeeper/confidant. Maybe she “helps” Kimmy with her horniness from time to time, but IMO they’re just friends with occasional benefits. I’m sure she knows that Kimmy wants Josh back. That might be why she had a distressed/sad face in the kitchen when Josh first saw her. She may still love Kimmy, but Kimmy doesn’t love her the same way.

Kat

🤣🤣🤣 I'm loving our punchiness here today!

Pete

Which makes it a shitty ending for me, Mike! I still don't believe Josh is enough of a wimp or a fool to settle for some unreciprocate new baby formula. Though the evidence is stacking up against it... Josh has always been copiously endowed with true grit.

Bill F Protagoras

L_S87 don't tap out. I value your commentary. For me yes characters (more than I would have liked) have reverted back to their former selves but if Josh sticks with Kimmy even after everything she did to him than he really didn't care that much. And maybe that's a HEA. I have read far darker books where cuckoldry happens and I scream at the husband to leave. This one is lighter compared to those (LOL!). Hell I think KT's Learning Lessons is worse. Pete should have split from Jess and filed for custody of his sons!

Andrew Mellein

I’ll exit with some levity for now. And because I want to have a couple days thinking Josh is holding a good hand for once before I find out next chapter he still has 7-2 off suit. From what we know, Josh isn’t “small” he’s “normal sized.” Kimmy has said that from her own POV. It’s just in comparison to Devlin’s foot long monster that he appears “small.” The infamous hotel “comparison” would say Josh was like half the size. So let’s say around 5 maybe 5 and 1/2. I’m going to use some words this very direct (and very horny) Irish lass once told me. Yeah, Josh isn’t the biggest, but he gives Kimmy his 100%. A sure thing every time. Would you rather have that, or a “whopper” who gives you his rubbery 75-80% most of the time? I rest my case.

JL23

🤣🤣🤣

Pete

To be honest, I haven't drawn any particular conclusions about that KT post because I'm pretty sure some people not liking the ending would be true of literally any ending KT could possibly write based on the story so far. This is a dark, fraught story! Any direction will surely leave some people unhappy (For example, some clearly want Josh to move on with someone else and some want him happy with Kimmy, two mutual exclusives assuming Josh is monogamous).

Glaucon

And not even then necessarily.

Bill F Protagoras

Beautiful... some traction at last... all my mind needed to work with... I apologize for my peevish, petulant and sometimes puerile outbursts...

Bill F Protagoras

You're right, Glaucon. My conflict with that conflict (ha!) is the massively hard sell we got over multiple books on just how far Josh was willing to go to get away from all this... and boom, in 3 or 4 chapters it means nothing. That bothers me. A lot.

L_S87

Yes, Donkatsu. That raises an ethical question for us, doesn't it: If Josh/Meyer even suspect that Josh has a Benzos problem, does he have an ethical obligation to tell Kimmy that before he moves into the same "house" as their daughter Colleen? And, if we say he does, will Josh behave ethically? Or will the desperate, broken, impoverished state his life is currently in drive him to...keep that little tidbit to himself?

Pete

I could probably say the same about Kimmy with Josh. Maybe her “need” for Josh is different than his for her, but I don’t think she can live without him either. So maybe that’s the lesson. We just have 2 people who deserve each other. That they’re each never going to find another person who can give them what the other does. And just hope they don’t ruin other people like their daughter.

JL23

True, Glaucon, very true. While this feels rather permanent, especially the end part and what Josh thinks, there are a number of revelations yet to be made. There's a lot we don't know, especially since we're lacking Kimmy's pov. I guess anything is possible, but it feels like if anything of actual consequence had been in the plan, we'd have seen it by now. Yes, Kimmy is acting oddly desperate, so there is possibly something there that will come out. I guess worst case scenario is I have to beg for forgiveness for being so judgemental. I just find it hard not to feel like this should be largely taken at face value given KTs ominous post from earlier about some of us not liking the ending she chose. I've got no issue with Josh getting back together with Kimmy. My issue is the way its been portrayed and the level of character and storyline invalidation that's occurred to make it happen.

L_S87

Yes, next question. Kimmy does not know this, so don't tell her yet.

Donkatsu

Absolutely she's hiding things. Feels to me like one of those "everything she says is technically true but there's a lot hidden by omission" deals.

Glaucon

Sister Aunt? Assuming Josh didn't see the wrong eye color in his Benzo haze. (Cough) paperwork!

Chris K

A brief search in the psychology literataure, key word, Kimmy Chang, generated the following results: [The entire search, including formatting, took less time than the music on to accompany the search, Ava Max “Oh She’s Sweet But She’s Psycho”.] A narcissistic sociopath (or narcopath) is what you can call a person who has both narcissistic and sociopathic traits. What makes them so insidious is that they know how to hurt their victims and how to keep their victims around. 1 Emotional blackmail This abuse tactic basically takes advantage of the fact that you have a conscience. They will guilt you whenever you stand up for yourself, make you feel horrible for refusing them, and basically tell you that if you liked them, you'd do what they say. 2 Isolation Narcopaths hate positive people in their victims' lives because it makes them feel more empowered. 3 Gaslighting Gaslighting is a tactic that is all about making you feel insane. This is when they keep insisting that things that happened, didn't happen. The less you trust that you're sane, the more you rely on them, which is what they want. 4 They demonstrate little to no remorse in harming others to get what they want 5 They are sadistic and enjoy inflicting pain. 6 They thrive off male attention. Female sociopaths and narcissists enjoy being the center of attention because it gives them power and a harem from which they can derive endless amounts of narcissistic supply in the form of praise, sex, and resources. Sociopaths enjoy this because it gives them a power trip, the ability to control others at a whim and play everyone like puppets. Narcissists enjoy it because it feeds their inflated ego and gives them validation. Female predators are not opposed to using their bodies to get what they want; they have no qualms using their appearance and sexuality to climb the corporate ladder, to take advantage of a doting boyfriend or to seduce a stranger, so long as it benefits them. They get off on the power and control – and their thirst for new victims is insatiable.

Donkatsu

He has it on his bureau, so every day as he straightens his tie in the mirror he can gaze upon a near-identical replica of his most prized asset.

Pete

This will allow Colleen's younger brother to also be her grandfather (not sure that is correct. My head hurts from this!)

Donkatsu

One of the central conflicts in this book, to my mind, is all of the above (Josh's betrayal panic attacks, quasi-suicide attempt, distrust of Kimmy) vs the frustrating, terrible truth that he still loves her AND they have a child together. I think Josh probably wishes it were easier to just walk away, but he's seemingly tried (with Karina) and it hasn't worked for him. That's the primary conflict here imo. If he could just walk away there wouldn't be a story.

Glaucon

Hyun feels like one of the other shoes that has yet to drop, to me.

Glaucon

Maybe Devlin waddled off with it? 😲

Chris K

Pete, we could be in full telenovela now. It could explain the almost desperate need Kimmy has to be with Josh. She knows she messed up with Keith and is worried about being pregnant, knowing Josh could never get past that, so she needs to make Josh believe he could be the father. Hopefully it’s not that. But at this point I can’t say there’s a zero percent chance of that. But I still sort of read Kimmy as not necessarily having a seduction of Josh planned ahead of time. It still feels like to me this is something that happened organically by being in his presence again. By the idea he could actually move on from her, that even if it’s that something she feels she deserves, she can’t actually stomach happening. If she wanted Josh cause she was afraid she was pregnant by Keith, I feel like there would have been a greater sense of premeditation from the outset. Again, she could be conning me as much as she’s conning Josh. But even at the beginning of this chapter, she pulls back when Josh does, and then kind of begs him to punish her, to get his hate out. The “he can’t get it up” line almost feels like a throwaway line she doesn’t even really think will change anything. Without Kimmy’s POV of course, it could all be a con by her. It just doesn’t feel like it to me though. She wants Josh to be with her, cause she wants Josh to be with her, not to help her cover up something like maybe being pregnant. But it does still feels like she’s hiding something.

JL23

I'm still leaning on the pregnancy angle. If Keith can't stay hard, and can't fuck like a champ, their sessions must be purposeful.

Chris K

🤣 No, don't sell yourself short. My first response WAS a laugh. Then I wondered. Though, you bring up another mystery: What ever has become of that nefarious, giant dong?

Pete

To be fair, we still don't have the whole picture yet. Maybe you won't be happy with it at that point either, but there's still more book to go.

Glaucon

That's an interesting take, Glaucon. It does coincide with me wondering whether or not she's telling the truth. Becsuse only Josh has to believe it. Its not like he'll ever have evidence of this. Kimmy could easily be lying and Josh would never know unless she or Stone told him.

L_S87

I've also been wondering whether Josh has a full-on addiction to Benzos?

Pete

There’s an interesting angle to this, Kimmy offering Josh the salve to his ego of being a sort of quasi-bull in a different relationship. Really, just anything to avoid sitting down and hashing out the whole truth with him. As ever, Kimmy hates exposition!

Glaucon

I do have to say, as harsh as I'm probably coming across on the decisions being made here, its important for me to remember and point out that Josh does have a habit of changing his mind, or becoming more willful, after sex, so there's no shoe in for him to not make Kimmy work hard for this. Him having a true HEA is obviously out the window, but there's a number of twists and turns still available out there. I do find it interesting that KT made it clear here that Josh hasn't stepped out on Kimmy, though she did on him, again. And yet, somehow that doesn't matter. Hopefully we'll get an explanation on how Josh is going to handle the 180 on caring about others knowing he's cuckolded, since everyone will if he starts being with Kimmy again. And also what's going to happen with the betrayal panic attacks. And Hyun. (Part of my issue with how this has gone is the ease with which so much appears to have been waved away without consequence and treated as if it no longer matters)

L_S87

She needs hard dick. That joke wasn't flying sky high...

Chris K

I've been wondering about Hyun/Kimmy maybe being a couple. Living there rent-free. Kimmy leased her a car. Hyun's going to school. Since she doesn't work, Kimmy's maybe paying for her schooling? Kimmy could easily afford a babysitter. And last I recall seeing Hyun in a scene, she was completely besotted with Kimmy. And Kimmy LOVED (to her own surprise) the sex she had with Hyun. If things aren't serious with Keith, could they be serious with Hyun?

Pete

I’ve got to ask but really Josh should. Why is Kimmy having a sexual relationship with Keith? I feel the answer to this question would open the door to explaining a lot. I can’t blame Josh for how he feels. If he can let the betrayal go everything is within his grasp too. It’s a big ask though.

Tracey52

I’ve just be conditioned to wanting, and needing, more to be there that now I wonder if the “more” is going to be not in favor of Josh. Both of the obvious endings on offer here: Kimmy is being totally honest about Keith, or Kimmy is conning Josh about Keith to get him to stay, feel like a cheat and too easy. And probably something that only needs another chapter or two to resolve, and leave a lot of stuff on the cutting room floor that I thought we’d get answers to. Kimmy does seem so earnest and desperate to have Josh back in her life, and at the beginning she slips into the “I don’t deserve you, so punish me, hate me, just don’t leave me” mode that feels genuine. She’s certainly never really been able to fake those emotions with Josh. If it’s a total con, then yeah, Kimmy to me is pretty irredeemable. Did the talking up Keith’s sexual prowess not work and she turned to talking it down all of a sudden, to get Josh to stay? I don’t know how she ultimately keeps that hidden from Josh if that’s not the case, and if he does find out it feels like that’s the final nail in the coffin for them. Also, I don’t know exactly how it fits into Josh’s kink. Maybe it’s a sometimes Keith is up to the task, others times he’s not kind of thing? There are all sorts of blue and yellow and green pills that help with that sort of thing. But the scenario she’s just completely conning him doesn’t feel right to me either. I just come back to the “more.” Like I said, she seems desperate for Josh to be there now. Is it as simple as she just misses him, and realizes how much she did being back in his presence? Or is there a reason why he has to be “on stage” at this point too. Is someone requesting him to be here, and as much as she wants to protect him, she can’t anymore? I don’t know how the father would want that, but if Devlin is still in the picture somehow, even against Kimmy’s will, he’d want Josh to be involved. I don’t know, again the offerings on hand now seem too simple to me, so maybe I’m just inventing more now.

JL23

#3, Chris?? Help me connect the dots.

Pete

It's probably absurd, but I suppose there is the chance that Keith isn't impotent, and may have 'potentially' knocked her up recently, and Kimmy desperately wants to get Josh's seed "onto the playing field," in the hopes the possible child is Josh's and not Keith's. When I say it like that, it sounds like a telenovela. 😂

Pete

Agreed, JL. The turn this chapter took really surprised me. I feel certain there's a big surprise coming. Now I just have no idea what it is.

Pete

While I disagree on it making sense, i do think the intent here was clear to show that Josh is too weak to live without Kimmy or stand up for himself, so he just gives in.

L_S87

Well, if the impotence bit is true, that scene would never happen because there's no way Stone would allow it.

L_S87

That is a great point, Andrew, and I think what Pete ultimately is driving at. Its also why I have such an issue with how things have turned out because panic attack from betrayal and jump in a lake because I hate this so much Josh suddenly doesn't care about any of those things.

L_S87

Ah! The easy ending it is!

Chris K

You’re right. She misses Josh. I believe that. And they have a daughter together. She could have anyone she wants, but she needs more.

Kat

Yeah, my misgivings with the choices KT has made aside, it is rather interesting to see how Kimmy bounces back and forth from being forceful to contrite and appears to be not altogether with it. Is that a facade? I she just saying what she thinks he wants to hear? Its hard to know how much truth there is here since Kimmy is such a good liar. Ultimately she gets exactly what she wants with Josh sleeping with her, but its hard to know why she appears to need that *so* badly. She says it's because she loves him, but the desperation comes across as too much. Either something is SO wrong that Josh truly is needed to bail her out, or she's overselling this big time as a distraction from things she doesn't want him to know. IE: titillate him with the impotence of Keith Stone over here like a good magician so he ignores whats going on over there. Don't know. The mystery is intriguing, but would have been much more well received, at least from me, if the story had been written and setup better to make this capitulation believable rather than feeling shoe horned in.

L_S87

He is a victim. But I am the point where he should do something and he's not. He continuously cloaks himself in a victim mentality. Dude just divorce the hoe and leave. There are other women out there. But instead he stays. So maybe he love's what Kimmy has to offer.

Andrew Mellein

Haha

Kat

Same.

Chris K

3 things of note in this chapter: 1. Kimmy is fucking Keith(kinda) 2. Josh did not have a sexual relationship with Karina 3. Hyun made Kimmy throw out the dildo

Chris K

Maybe she gives him rubdowns and plays with his limp dick! (LOL!)

Andrew Mellein

Maybe because I working so hard moving things. But I kind of liked the chapter! Maybe my brain is shut off (LOL!)

Andrew Mellein

Thats got to be one of the best rationalizations for victim blaming I've ever read.

L_S87

Andrew, yes!!! I guess that's what I'm feeling. The victim mentality. That is SO Josh.

Pete

Right now, I kinda feel like I need a break from this. The writing is sublime but the choices for the characters feels... awful, contradictory and invalidating. We could rewind the past year, delete a couple books and literally be in the same place except for 1 person and one point about a lack of sexual prowess that, given Kimmy's proclivities, is just as likely to be a lie as not. At what point do we get a story where decisions actually have consequences instead of slaps on the wrist that take minimal effort to overcome?

L_S87

Josh should have put his foot down a long time ago. He honestly shouldn't have whined to Kimmy but just left. I think he loves suffering and for Kimmy to make a fool out of him. He has a victim mentality. Dude grow the fuck up and divorce Kimmy or be in a cuckold relationship with her. It's your choice.

Andrew Mellein

I agree, Kat. If Kimmy just wanted a hard dick, I'm sure she could have her pick of other men. She seems to want at least sexual intimacy with Josh. I imagine she wants emotional intimacy with him too. Maybe that's mostly what she craves, and that talk about her needing a young, hard dick was just harmless dirty talk?

Pete

Well, this chapter is a doozy. Enjoy! Lol 🫠

Kat

Yup, been a busy day! Skipped my lunch break even.

Andrew Mellein

I kinda of like the chapter. But yeah your right Kimmy could be lying. But maybe knowing Keith is impotent in bed would help Josh open his inner cuckold. Because it appears Keith is not a threat. I think there should be another hotel room with Josh watching and maybe this time it wont affect him badly due to Keith's impotence. He could also see if Kimmy's lying again. I think if there was a moment for Josh to bail and leave Kimmy that point has passed. He's whupped by Kimmy no matter how much he freaks out.

Andrew Mellein

Yeah, I'm kinda wondering if Kimmy is lying to Josh, realizes he walks unless she tells him what he needs to hear to find staying acceptable. So she says Stone can't get it up because that saves Josh from feeling like he has no purpose or reason to be with her.

L_S87

Something to boost your day….or not? 😂😂😂

Kat

It’s a mind fuck in the extreme. What is going on? It still seems so incongruous with where we left them in the last book. We‘re missing so much of the story. Where is Kimmy’s POV? At this point, does it even matter anymore? This seems to be heading in a sad direction.

Kat

I know, right? WTF is going on with her? I’m totally puzzled myself.

Kat

Kat

He said, “You can’t just drag me into bed. You can’t steamroll me that way. Fuck, Kimmy...” He shook his head, dismayed. “And now you summon me here and I see my, my fucking daughter...” He grabbed a handful of hair, a touch of madness seizing him. “And you want me to live here. Want me to sit and watch your life, but you also want me in bed...?” Wow, those paragraphs triggered me. Maybe it's just me, but I keep wondering when, if ever, Kimmy can stop walking on eggshells with Josh. I mean, Josh, it's been a fuc*in year! She can't do this, and she can't do that, and she has to somehow know to do xyz a certain way. She's wrong no matter what she says, or how she tries. (Meanwhile Josh hasn't visited his own child for an entire year!) Josh, you're a big boy. Your wife isn't sexually assaulting you here. 'No' is a word you can use. She hasn't kidnapped you, Josh. She's offering you a place to live, close enough to be in your daughter's life on a daily basis. Which is something you can't provide for yourself because you.... 1. Quit working; and 2. Burnt all your savings on a trip with Meyer. Man, after such a long time with Josh not even bothering to confirm whether this baby is his... And now even after a year, or 18 months apart, he's still forcing her to walk on eggshells... Were I Kimmy, I'd show him the door. Been without you for a long time now, dude. I've said I'm sorry a zillion times. I've prepared this apartment for you, all on my own, trying to make it easy for you, and it's still not good enough for you? How can I possibly get it right? How many more hoops, Josh? You want your silver platter handed to you on bended knee? My words spoken in the perfect tone, with just the right cadence? I'd be done. Hit the road, Josh. I'm suing for full custody of Colleen, and we can work it out in court.

Pete

Josh compared himself to a raven here, which is likely not a coincidence. KT mentioned in a comment that she considers the raven to represent “corruption.” So is Josh corrupting himself here, to the point he’ll regret in the future. It really feels like Kimmy is being genuine, and that she really, really wants and needs Josh. But still so much symbolism to suggest there’s more. Is it as simple as she just needs Josh in her life, that like we said she feels empty without him? Or, is she knowingly corrupting Josh? Is his presence needed for some reason that she can’t avoid anymore? That she can’t protect him from? Or that she no longer wants to protect him from? I honestly don’t know. This chapter definitely upends a lot of my thoughts.

JL23

My excitement for the next chapter has diminished.

Chris K

So yeah, um…I wasn’t expecting well….that. Is it so simple that the way around everything is this? That Keith Stone gets his rocks off with his gorgeous young executive, Kimmy gets off on being bad and driving her husband wild, and Josh can enjoy it cause he knows Keith is not a threat, not someone who wildly out performs him in bed? Someone his wife won’t leave him for? Could it be that simple? Is Kimmy being honest here? I feel like if she’s lying about Keith’s well…prowess…just to get Josh in bed, that’s a level of manipulation she’s never getting past. Unless she’s able to hide the actual truth from Josh completely. If he never is in the room with Keith, he won’t know any different. We know he can’t handle being in the room, maybe she just tells him this and he accepts that? But again, that’s not the way to go about this, and I feel like Kimmy would know that. So I’m taking her at her word that she’s being honest. Maybe she got involved with Keith to take her mind off not being with Josh and this is what she discovered. But again (again), this just feels like it’s too straightforward a resolution. And I’m not sure I’d be totally satisfied there wasn’t more to everything that happened to get them here. Man, if this is a manipulation, if Kimmy is able to lie to this manner to Josh, in order to get him to stay. And he falls for it…then we find out the actual truth. God, then that is truly the darkest ending. This chapter is a bit of a mind f$cK to be honest. I really don’t know what to think lol.

JL23

Great a new chapter! Also its my first day back to work!

Andrew Mellein

Thank you, KT!

Kat