[Salvos] 735. Salvos Clone (Removed for KU)
Added 2024-11-04 21:42:34 +0000 UTC(Removed for KU)
Comments
Bertugil would genuinely be great for that. I second the idea of him teaching a class about the Netherworld and Demons at Mavos. Maybe Oracli too if he survives and joins Salvos and co. But I think that Bertugil would definitely become friend with Kron. Personality-wise, he would fit in.
Sancturillore -- Élie Simard-Wallot
2024-11-18 07:00:16 +0000 UTC"Wait, you're actually having a problem with that lvl 175 Greater Amaymon?"
Danijel Turina
2024-11-10 12:33:13 +0000 UTCAlso, a friend of mine made a very good observation yesterday, commenting on how the Matriarch Centinel likely gets experience from her brood's actions. He said that Soli is likely getting experience from all the Spirit contracts, and his plan is likely to level himself so high as to break through some System barrier and thus become a True God. My response was that this would be super likely. Also, if Regnorex is doing the same thing with Demon contracts and, possibly, actions of all collared Demons, his level might be way higher than our expectations. On the other hand, if not, and he's basically just letting others do his work, his level might be reasonable.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-10 10:17:30 +0000 UTC"And what TF is Salvos doing here with enough forces to completely wipe Secely clean?!" - BTW, this might be the best possible way to get everybody to act civilised; basically, bring such overwhelming force that absolutely nobody wants to see the business end of it. Like, instant peace between Humans, Kobolds and Elves, because the side that prefers war gets to die. Especially after they kill the Matriarch Centinel lvl 238, who is apparently the most powerful person in the Mortal Realm, with the most feared army in the Mortal Realm. Like, they attacked Salvos' school and all died. Anyone else wants to fuck with Salvos? Didn't think so. It's similar to all those assholes in Mavos who defaced that memorial obelisk, but none of whom wanted to repeat any of that stuff in Sally's face, or in Clayton's face while we're at it. And then, when they are properly intimidated, they might actually listen and learn. Like, oh, Salvos is not just some silly adventurer girl, she took over the Netherworld from Regnorex, killed the Matriarch Centinel and is the daughter of the 50000 year old first King of the Netherworld. Alexander is shit in comparison. We better pay attention.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-10 09:48:24 +0000 UTC"while Haec is completely unable to process how Salvos interacts with people as low level as Valda as equals ;)" - Haec remains problematic. He absorbed too many things from Regnorex, and not enough completely different concepts. Also, those liberated demons are all completely ignorant of anything and can't seem to make up their minds on whether they are dreaming or awake. Things are developing at too fast a pace for anyone to be able to communicate the situation to a million people, and at some point they will need to catch up as this can't go on indefinitely. "Rachel is like "I can't appraise any of them. I wonder how many of those demons Clayton can take?"" - I think Rachel, being Rachel, will just start chatting up someone like Hartia or Bertrugil. :) "And Clayton is like "I can appraise most of these demons. I wonder how many Claytons each of them can take." - I think it will be "I wonder how many Watchers each of them could take?" :) I do wonder whether this will happen before or after the inevitable fight with Regnorex. I also wonder whether Focalor, and perhaps Samuel and Belphegor will be included. They would certainly need to teach Mortals some history, because nobody, including Kobolds, knows the true story. "And what TF is Salvos doing here with enough forces to completely wipe Secely clean?!" - I think the discrepancy between the objective force behind her and her openness and friendliness will be the most shocking. "Salvos: "Orgaf, I thought you wanted to catch up?! You didn't even advanced 30 levels! Naturally, noone but me can save the day!"" - I think she matured way past that. I think the others will be more obsessed with her levels than vice versa; she will just be glad to see them again and happy that she's accepted - by those that matter, at least. I expect some stupid assholes to give her the evil eye, and Council of Cremont (and everybody else that works for Soli) is going to be a hostile force. However, considering how they essentially betrayed everyone by refusing to help with both the lvl 175 Greater Amaymon and the Matriarch Centinel, I don't think they will have any support with the people, especially if they try to attack Salvos who is something of a legend and is known to have saved everybody. She's just too respectable and left too much of a trail of goodness behind her for their stereotypical slander to work. There will have to be explanations, though. For instance, the princess thing is commonly known but they don't know whether it's true or not or what it means. They think she's the daughter of Regnorex or something. They also have no idea that Regnorex commands the area of Netherworld about the size of Motharis mountain range - a negligible part of the Netherworld itself. Basically, what they don't know is a vast library, and what they do know can fit on five sheets of paper. The Demons are in a similar position - they know next to nothing about Humans and their society. This means all kinds of funny mishaps. I still think Bertrugil should teach at the Mavos academy. Also, he's bound to like Kron: "Me just want to eat, sleep and be safe". "Ah, a true soulmate!" :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-10 08:14:19 +0000 UTC"Well, to me, emotions are culturally accepted umbrella terms for different long chains of reasoning. Useless as soon as you try to look under the umbrella." - you seem to imply that it's all subjective nonsense. Have in mind that "cultures", at least those that actually manage to survive in the long-term, not like the experimental nonsense we have to endure in the West, have one very big thing in common: the world itself. Every successful culture is formed by negotiating with the world itself, and thus can't be that much removed from the objective reality. Culture is a language humans created to describe reality and successfully negotiate with it, and you seem to refuse to speak it. Sure, cultures contains all kinds of nonsense in regard to things that don't matter for survival, like the Galaxy being milk someone spilled in the sky and so on. However, in regard to important things, like courage, loyalty, truthfulness, love and so on, it's absolutely rock solid, you can even call it scientific, because it's formed by experimental iteration upon reality and if something was either good or bad, you can be sure it was experimentally established by a billion redundant experiments. It's like the classical art - it uses a language of symbols based in human genetics and experience, and is thus able to convey a message even to people far beyond the cultural circle. Imagery based on human condition and emotion is universally understandable. Furthermore, we can understand animal emotions because we share a vast common evolutionary tree with them, and they formed their emotions negotiating with the same world as we. You're making the same mistake that is prevalent in the so called modern art - oh, the symbols are cultural, let's get rid of them and introduce our own personal code that only we shall understand, and the result is of course garbage without any value, because it doesn't communicate. Who does communicate? Someone like Banksy. Why is he successful? He uses commonly understood symbols - a language. That's also what Melas does with "Salvos" - he uses commonly understandable symbols and then plays with them somewhat, for instance introduces the concept of demonic imagery that is separated from the common understanding of demonic nature. You seem to want to rid yourself of emotion because it hurts. I, however, don't differentiate between emotion and intellect. Both are useful if you want to communicate with people. How the fuck am I supposed to convey my understanding of something if I don't use concepts and images people will understand?
Danijel Turina
2024-11-10 07:47:04 +0000 UTCHey Melas! How are you doing? I bet you are busy! Sorry to bother you despite that, but do you already have a plan when you'll release the next chapter? I'm so excited! I can't wait!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-09 23:33:52 +0000 UTCBut seriously! Why is everybody so weak?! Can they even circumvent the perfect evasion of a [Hellabomination]'s GS?! Can they even kill immortals?! Can they even hop between the planes?!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-09 23:29:52 +0000 UTCWell, to me, emotions are culturally accepted umbrella terms for different long chains of reasoning. Useless as soon as you try to look under the umbrella. I think it's a bit sad that noone is willing to peel back the cultural crust around their intellect, but I guess it has to be enough that I lead by example in understanding my emotions. That aside, I can totally see Clayton shitting himself after appraising Salvos and her demonic company, while Haec is completely unable to process how Salvos interacts with people as low level as Valda as equals ;) Rachel is like "I can't appraise any of them. I wonder how many of those demons Clayton can take?" And Clayton is like "I can appraise most of these demons. I wonder how many Claytons each of them can take. And what TF is Salvos doing here with enough forces to completely wipe Secely clean?!" Salvos: "Orgaf, I thought you wanted to catch up?! You didn't even advanced 30 levels! Naturally, noone but me can save the day!"
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-09 23:18:43 +0000 UTCHowever, on a more practical note, I'd have so much fun seeing several things in the future: - Salvos rifting in and kicking incredible amounts of ass in front of all the Mages in the Academy as audience, hopefully accompanied by multiple incredibly high levelled Demons who came to redeem the reputation of their kind in the Mortal Realm; - Them all sitting at the table with Clayton and other Human big shots, who don't know whether to vocalise their contempt of Demonkind, or shit bricks; - Clayton using Appraisal on Salvos and shitting himself; - Salvos hugging her friends and being a sweetheart in front of all kinds of super-Demons; that's a sight they would never expect to see; - Demons being in shock after realising how much at home Salvos is in the Mortal Realm, especially seeing how intimate she is with how many high ranked Humans; - Matriarch Centinel being smashed into a pulp, and Jerome figuring out how to have a life. :) - Rachel being "I knew Salvos is strong, but damn!"; - Helena being really awkward and apologetic, because she treated Salvos like shit and realised how much she actually helped them and advanced their situation, not to mention giving them knowledge of the Corruption; - Orgaf being "That's my girl!"
Danijel Turina
2024-11-09 19:25:24 +0000 UTCThere's no "fluff" in what I'm talking about. Love is what was implicitly exchanged between Rachel and Sally: "I love my life very much. But I love you more". And then she turns around to challenge something that''s at least 60 levels above *Salvos*, to buy time. It's not what you think it is. You think it's some emotional nonsense. It's not. It's choosing to partake in the foundational reality.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-09 18:21:55 +0000 UTCWell, I guess this is the quintessential core of our disagreement, isn't it? I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion that Salvos is a series uniquely competent in representing the true human experience beyond the constraints of culture. But I cannot stomach the explanation based on "love". Replace it with "reason" and change up the fluff appropriately, then you speak deeply from my soul ;)
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-09 18:06:45 +0000 UTCI must commend Melas on something. Salvos is the best description of love as a power in all of literature, at least in all I've read, which is quite a substantial amount, even if I say so myself. Everywhere else, when love is described as a Divine attribute, it doesn't come off that way - it's always described as something syrupy, icky, weak and often hysterical, and everybody who's seen anything truly transcendental knows that's not what is meant, and it's as if a completely different spiritual state is described, the way people paint colour "violet" by mixing blue and red, and in fact the real violet is a frequency above deep dark blue and below ultraviolet, but you can't do that with paint, or on a monitor that doesn't have a near-ultraviolet component of output. With Salvos, love as a positive force is as tangible as Darth Vader's power, when he just crushes through his enemies with Force, and everybody's shaking in their boots in his presence. Salvos is the same tangible, terrible module of power, but of the opposite sign. With her, love is both a tangible shield and a blade of mental focus that just crushes through everything, and even her cold, murderous rage has the distinct quality of pure love. As far as I know, nobody else in literature managed to pull this off, not even Tolkien.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-09 11:07:46 +0000 UTCI think my thought about the second class being hard to level might come from the 3rd book, Hadrian chapter: "But once you were past the 100s, leveling was far slower, especially with a ‘second Class’ to siphon away the experience." I feel like there was another passage more in line with my hypothesis. I'll have to look for that. It might have been when Salvos gained/evolved her own second class...
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-09 03:58:42 +0000 UTCHaving in mind the enormous numbers, it would suffice for 5% of all the experience gathered by the brood to go to the Matriarch, and over millennia it would accumulate.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-08 22:01:47 +0000 UTCI think the law of conservation of energy holds in regards to experience here. If the matriarch gets experience from her kin, they gain less. The great question is if that approach is better than Salvos'.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-08 21:56:50 +0000 UTCThere's another similarity... some Centinels can be "awakened" and develop sentience/sapience/individuality - like Sally? And the rest are merely animalistic things, which would explain why Matriarch has no qualms with killing them. To her, they are manifestations of the brood, rather than individual persons. Maybe at lvl 150 they experience some kind of awakening of individuality, which is why she perceives them as her children. Which makes me wonder: would Salvos perceive Sally as her daughter or sister? Sure, there are differences. The System treats centinels as individuals with levels and classes, and Sally, although having her own mana system and being able to create her own clones, is (was?) stuck at lvl 150 and is probably still seen as an extension of Salvos rather than a fully individual being. I wonder what happens once they fully reconnect. I think some kind of an enrichment of both; I don't think she'll just be absorbed and extinguished. I'm pretty sure Salvos gets to level/evolve the Skill, into let's say "Ego Expansion" or "Second Life"? They look somewhat like identical twins - basically the same person separated into two branches of existence, both same and distinct, or like one person with separated brain hemispheres, where lack of communication between brain parts creates the appearance of a separate individuality. It's both a philosophical and practical question (are we all individuals, or just lacking in communication?) , but Sally is definitely a kind and heroic person in her own right. Whether her actions merge into the common Salvos branch and contribute to the whole, or she continues her existence as a twin sister of Salvos, she needs to be acknowledged.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-08 15:16:25 +0000 UTC“If I read that right that her clones get independent GS cooldowns...” - not sure about that; the last time a clone used the Claw it was on cooldown for Salvos. Not sure if that changed with Divine Essence lvl 2.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-08 13:21:06 +0000 UTCSure, there are many differences, but there needs to be just that one similarity for her level to make sense.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-08 13:17:54 +0000 UTCIf everyone else has self-resurrection, Salvos will just convert a clone into her main body every time she is struck down. Her clones are getting closer and closer to the genuine article, so I think she can do that after [Salvo of Vanity] evolved. If I read that right that her clones get independent GS cooldowns... Even if it's just Sally, that's strong! Well, it only matters for the claw and flames GSs and makes the essence GS a bit more flexible, but still! Imagine anyone being struck by multiple [Claw of Corruption]s! Well, [Worldbreak] and [Divine Radiant Slash] + [Corrupted Draconic Fury] are similarly dangerous... That's worthy of a Primordial!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-08 13:04:53 +0000 UTCHm... Salvos' clones can't level, while the centinels can. There has to be a difference.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-08 12:52:48 +0000 UTCBtw, when it comes to previous comment about Salvos learning same GS if she had stayed in Rainforest. I disagree. She would have experienced different things, fought different enemies, have different interactions, which would in turn affect her advancements/evolutions, GS, etc.
Gonvas
2024-11-08 11:35:49 +0000 UTC"IIRC, they are just in the Beastmen Plains" - I hope this is the case, but the fact that they didn't respond to Clayton's general distress call suggests they are in a serious pickle.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-08 11:34:00 +0000 UTCI didn't find that information from Edith and can we consider non-diamond rank Edith a trustworthy source for this? What we saw is that it's easier to lvl the 2nd one. It takes away XP from main one (B3 a diamond rank adventurer said this, so he's someone which experienced this), and as we saw with Salvos U can just use the 2nd class skills to focus on its development and because of Ur main class/subspecies there's little to no danger (when the ranks are different). Of course there's cases like Hadrian that purposely don't advance their 2nd class because they are after a unique/rare advancement. Which directly affects the lvl up speed. But these cases aren't a matter of being harder to lvl up. Perhaps we can say it's the opposite, they lvl up so fast they didn’t have time to gather enough feats with 2nd class.
Gonvas
2024-11-08 11:30:53 +0000 UTCIIRC, they are just in the Beastmen Plains. The Endlands is far away and there's tons of monsters between Seceley and Endlands. I expect them to be busy with the corruption in the plains.
Gonvas
2024-11-08 11:15:06 +0000 UTC"I was thinking that this is how Salvos achieves immortality. " - well, in both instances she attained Grand Skills she almost died. This would suggest that, in order for one to attain immortality, they should have a very close brush with death. That sounds ominous, but considering what we know about Salvos and how she rolls, I'm afraid it's likely.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-08 09:41:10 +0000 UTCOh, I forgot: Helena, Orgaf and their team of Elites passed the Beastmen Plains and ventured to the Endlands, and got stuck in some corrupted field where space and time are fucked, so they can't go back, nor can they fight their way out, the way Salvos was stuck in that Escher space before the second level. Also, none of them have Divinity, so their time is running out. Hopefully they survive until Salvos can get them out. I mean, the Watcher and Daniel could probably get them out at this point too, but honestly, it's the Endlands, and Salvos has Corruption Resistance/Mastery. Also, I wish Samuel and Belphegor would take a more active role, because their help would surely be welcome. After all, it's not like this is none of their business.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-08 09:07:07 +0000 UTCI'm thinking, there are several things that might happen soon enough. Manos is lvl 197 now, which is very close to 200. I don't know if he maxed out his grand skills, but he should be close, and there are some very serious fights impending, so he might evolve to Primordial pretty much as soon as Salvos, since her pace of levelling is insane, and especially since she's on the bleeding edge of any serious fight. Second, the sync between Salvos and Sally will include Salvos getting the experience, and possibly evolving the Skill. Now, that might be interesting. I expect Chordus to have panicked after the collars of Jofis, Manos and Sicar disappeared from her iPad, and called Regnorex or Oracli directly to ask for help, because, obviously, it's a major emergency. Regnorex will have to agree and, since he thinks he has more important stuff going on, will send Focalor and perhaps a number of Primevals to deal with it. Salvos will have to talk to Focalor and free him from his enslavement curse, while taking a thrashing. I expect her to succeed and get Focalor as an ally. Not only is he almost unkillable, he's also potentially almost family. His death would be a tragedy. There's that undertone of Haec having to make up his mind whether he's following Salvos or trying to order her around. Also, his sanctimonious, self righteous attitude is grating. Every time Salvos recruits a top general of Regnorex he's on with the same shit, as if he wasn't one of that same team recently. I wish Salvos could arrange the meeting between him and the old Lady Anya Veridian, whose husband was murdered by Haec's trainee Avaritia because of boots. Imagine that Truth Divination session, where he sees the result side of his actions, and she sees who it is that made Avaritia into what he was. Also, he should meet the parents of the children of Cedric academy whom his another trainee, Ira, killed in order to level and get a better evolution. He has very flawed assumptions about his moral virtue. If anything, Salvos had to clean the mess, on the other side, that he helped create. Another thing that will soon happen is that Salvos will have all her Grand Skills levelled to 3. Let's see if that maxes them out. And, eventually, if and when Focalor defects, Regnorex will have to understand that his kingdom is lost and will fight not only Salvos, but possibly two other Primordials, assuming Manos evolves. Regnorex dies here. Somewhere in that timespan Salvos feels the link with Sally re-asserting itself.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-08 08:52:32 +0000 UTCI was thinking that this is how Salvos achieves immortality. After all, every/most primordials are supposed to have that. So far, all instances of this we have seen where a kind of "self-resurrection" thing. Logicaly, she would need to get something like that before evolution, not after.
Angworu
2024-11-08 07:51:35 +0000 UTCOrdinary space magic isn't the issue. That takes time. In contrast to [Riftwalk] and lv2 [The World of my Mind]. Salvos just does everything over the top...
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 23:45:22 +0000 UTC"Salvos can make a few Ophanim disappear unnoticed" - I'm afraid it would be exactly like what happened when she killed a few gargoyles and Belphegor arrived to check what's wrong. Or like what happened when the Archangel killed a few and Soli appeared. I think he can look through their eyes if he has a reason to, the way Salvos can do with her clones. No, that one is as dangerous as they come and I hope she's ready for him when they finally meet.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 22:01:12 +0000 UTCYeah, something like when she came from the Bloodied Gulf and went to rescue Daniel and was like "why is everybody so weak?" :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 21:56:37 +0000 UTCAlso, she tried to grab Sally, like she didn't watch Salvos kill that Ancient Centinel, showing that her deadliest attacks are basically in super close combat, tearing out the carapace and burning the insides, even breaking through the perimeter of the corrupted GS to nuke it and then bite its head off. It's such a stupid thing to do, and of course Sally blasted her with Worldbreak. But that's also what Jofis tried before he got rifted away and thus lost control - "let me just keep crushing you until your protective skill fizzles out". That would actually work with someone like Helena, who is a long-distance magic user and has no close combat skills; you close the distance and they are screwed. However, Salvos is actually famous for being an incredibly deadly fighter in close combat, all of which was on display in the Bloodied Gulf. Also, getting close and personal with a space mage who can open rifts to god knows where, now that's a brilliant idea as well, but she couldn't have known about that.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 21:47:24 +0000 UTCIt's just amazing to see the difference between her rudimentary thoughts, and someone close to her level and age, like Samuel and Belphegor, both of whom are incredibly sophisticated. She is closer to a barely talking viper than a fully developed person. One would expect this to be a species problem, but Centina is as articulate as any human, her emotions are for all intents and purposes human, and she's what, five centuries old, compared to the Matriarch who was probably there when the corruption first appeared. It's absolutely incredible how she managed to stay this retarded. Also, her magical attacks are just straightforward strikes. Just imagine what someone like Samuel or Tera could do, or how Salvos trapped Hartia in realityspace/corruption hybrid plates, or how she rifted Jofis first into her pocket space waiting in the interplanar void, and then tagging Hartia to take over, layering the situation so that even if he breaks through, he's still dead. The Matriarch is so stupid I'm cheering for our guys to kill her just to put her out of her misery. :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 21:38:09 +0000 UTCIf he does focus on Reggie, Salvos can make a few Ophanim disappear unnoticed. I mean since they are Primordial, she might take cover in the corruption and/or use the corruption to deal with them.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 20:26:08 +0000 UTCYou mean like "Let's test out this new normal attack skill..." and that's a one-shot?
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 20:23:08 +0000 UTCI think since lvl 100 it was and still is a bit lacking to only look at one of the levels. I think Salvos fights around the level of a 190/190 double Primordial. Which might equate a 230/90 smart creature and a 240/90 wild creature? Given the story with the ancient centinel and the matriarch's temperament, I think she does have a low class level and is close to wild.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 20:17:47 +0000 UTCJust watch if we turn out to be completely wrong, and Salvos in the meantime defeated Regnorex, levelled to 190 and got the evolution to Primordial, and the link is glitching because she's evolving, and when that's finished, all hell breaks loose. :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 19:08:25 +0000 UTC"Well, once the memory is properly synced, knowledge isn't the issue." - yes, but until then she's at a serious disadvantage, blackouts and all. We agree that the stat differential is too great for Sally, but I'm not so sure about Salvos. Salvos with her stackable titles, class, corruption, divinity and levels hits far above any expectation for her level - a lvl 188 Venas was known as extremely strong and she just trashed him, at her old class, lvl 165, without grand skills and not using corruption. With her new title, she would probably absolutely trash Jofis, and in fact most lvl 205 Primordials. I have no strong evidence for that, but I'm working with what we know about past experience and stat differentials. The Matriarch is incredibly high levelled, but the Centinels as a species are about the weakest possible for their levels. A human routinely dispatches a Centinel at least 10 levels above him. A Demon routinely dispatches a human 10 levels above him, and possibly even a class upgrade above him, while Salvos absolutely trashes Demons 20 levels above her, and is probably equally matched with a Primordial. I would say Salvos alone might have this, but it's a closer fight than I would like. With help from Manos, for instance, the Matriarch is absolutely fucked. It's enough that someone strong is attacking the Matriarch from behind, so that she can't concentrate completely on Salvos, and I don't think she would know what to do. Especially if someone like Clayton finally makes an appearance and blasts her with his grand skill while protected by the breastplate of Alexander.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 19:05:32 +0000 UTCThe only thing I completely mis-predicted was Matriarch's level. I expected something around 205, and I would have never expected her to be this high. I wonder if there's a catch, though. For instance, a very low levelled class, or some other weakness, like ignorance of any sophisticated magic. Sally is doing much better than Salvos clones did against Jofis, btw, but they didn't use Grand Skills. That would suggest not only that Jofis was striking way above expectations for his level, but also that the Matriarch is far weaker than would be expected for a Demon at her level. That's not unexpected - Salvos with Divine Essence basically completely overpowered the Ancient Centinel lvl 162 when she was lvl 127, 35 levels above her. My prior evaluation was that Salvos would currently fight at the level of a Primordial Demon, lvl. 200-205, her GS, stackable Title and all, considering how she fared against Jofis powered by a super-powerful set of Grand Skills. The Matriarch is still overpowering, but the fight is closer than the levels alone suggest. Of course, Sally with her brain glitching due to syncs, and not even knowing what tools she has at her disposal and discovering it during a fight is at a serious disadvantage, but I would expect Salvos herself to shift the balance quite a bit.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 18:49:57 +0000 UTCwelp, looks like my guess form a few chapters ago was entirely off. I sure didn't expect Rachel to meekly throw empty, naive idealism at the Matriarch while having what appears to be the killer of the matriarch's offspring in tow - I wonder why that didn't work. With the Matriarch now being irrevocably (for all we know) twisted by corruption, seems like there is no way to resolve this peacefully.
Salvos Enjoyer
2024-11-07 17:17:53 +0000 UTCHe's just too old and smart for me to hope for that. It's possible, but then again he's going to use God's Eye, see she's the Devil's Daughter, and start watching her carefully across the planes. As things are, she might encounter him anyway, since he's bound to be watching Regnorex's ritual from up close. I have some ideas, but the worst thing for her would be to cross paths with him too early, which is to say, as she is now.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 16:06:17 +0000 UTCThat only applies if his senses always extend through the Ophanim AND he doesn't dismiss Salvos as "just a corrupted creature". There are multiple points that make her seem harmless to him. E.g. her level
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 15:50:05 +0000 UTC"It's like he placed them for Salvos to level!" - she doesn't want to attract Trico's attention in any way at this point. Not before she's a True God. He's an enemy she simply can't defeat, not unless her dad, Belphegor, Archangel, Focalor and (possibly) Manos who evolved to Primordial are at her side, and even then it would be a problem since the other Worldwalkers don't know the truth and they would destroy the Nexeus if another Worldwalker were to be killed there. It's a problem that will require more than just brute force.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 15:42:49 +0000 UTCSoli ordered the Ophanim to deal with the corruption, right? It's like he placed them for Salvos to level! Since they seem to have been created at level 200, they shouldn't have good titles or diverse skills. They would be the perfect snack before the matriarch and [Great Agarus]! Even reasonable for clones to 1v1!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 15:04:37 +0000 UTC"Given that Edithe's return is overdue" - regarding that, poor Hadrian. "Edithe should be back by now from the Council of Cremont, I wonder what kept her up..." :(
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 14:03:06 +0000 UTCThe universe doesn't care! An impartial score shouldn't care either. It only matters from the perspective of the agents. For a sociopath, hedonism is better than proper conduct. For empathic agents like "normal" people, the own wellbeing is central, but hedonism is unattractive because of the long term consequences. An action is good from an agent's perspective if it keeps them alive in mid term, that is centuries at most. I don't want to call the general public short sighted but most don't contemplate the societal impact of their actions over the next millenia. And in a millenium a specific instance of, say, rape is irrelevant compared to birth rates, dating climate and cultural trends, if we remain in the domain of procreation. That is the kind of morality the system has to judge.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 13:53:18 +0000 UTC"Salvos can just send a clone to the Spirit Realm!" - she can, but honestly, that's likely to attract unwanted attention and since Salvos never did it, she'd want to go there personally; after all, it's one of the items on her bucket list. The way to do it would be with her pocket space, unseen and unheard, and using the supersensory skill to locate her companions. But of course, Salvos doesn't do anything inconspicuously so she's certain to cause all sorts of trouble, mayhem and war. :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 13:52:45 +0000 UTCSalvos can just send a clone to the Spirit Realm! That shouldn't cost too much time. Salvos is capable of true multitasking afterall ;) An army of Salvoses (assuming [Salvo of Vanity] evolved) can spare a few for one side job or the other!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 13:40:04 +0000 UTCWell, once the memory is properly synced, knowledge isn't the issue. But I think the stat difference is too great for Sally alone to win! Unless she has access to Salvos' energy to spam clones... Well, I guess Salvos and Matriarch Centinel are at the level where individual strikes matter less and less and victory goes to whoever exhausts the other first. That or blocking regeneration. So what is more decisive? The matriarch's bigger energy reserves or Salvos' unhealable attacks?
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 13:35:13 +0000 UTC"The only thing that makes this different from others stealing from him is that he does it voluntarily." - that's like saying that the only difference between rape and sex is that it's voluntary. Sure, but that's kind of the whole point. Besides, what is there in life other than voluntary mutually beneficial interactions with others? And by mutually beneficial I mean he levelled a lot (he was like the second strongest human warrior or something), he was a leader of a widely respected adventurer company, Watcher's apprentice, had one of the most prestigious Titles, and was widely admired and respected. His death was universally mourned as a tragedy. You make it sound as if anything that's not completely selfish is a waste of time and energy that would otherwise be spent on hedonistic pursuits, and if so, I wholeheartedly disagree. In fact, I would say that hedonistic pursuits are empty and meaningless if you don't have friends to share them with, and friendships work best if they are forged in hardship and sacrifice.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 13:32:32 +0000 UTCRegarding Mori Gladius, I'm not really talking about his death but his life and general attitude. He traded his time, energy and attention for the wellbeing of others. The only thing that makes this different from others stealing from him is that he does it voluntarily.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 13:19:33 +0000 UTC"Sally knows Edithe is in the Spirit Realm, so Salvos should know by now, too. " - I'm not sure the bandwidth of the connection is good enough to transfer everything; it's obviously spotty, but I agree that, if it continues, Salvos should have all the necessary information. However, she will definitely go to the Mortal Realm first, because she'll have certain knowledge of immediate mortal danger there, and that will require immediate intervention.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 12:51:14 +0000 UTC"Mori Gladius harmed himself to get the best possible outcome for others. That is also objectively neutral." - I would agree if it were suicidal, in a sense of intentionally sacrificing himself in order to save some city. It would also be very ineffective if his goal were to save those people. However, his actions were much less of a gamble - he went at a Demon of slightly lesser level than himself, and he had Salvos as a very strong sidekick, and as a result, he won, albeit at the cost of his Grand Skills, and was about to kill Belzu when his luck ran out and Levithus just appeared and killed him. If not for that massive misfortune, his gamble would've paid off and he would've won. This is why I assess his actions as completely good without qualifications; as he saw the situation, he was right and did well. Levithus' appearance was as unpredictable as those things get, for instance you're fighting a lvl 120 wild demon, you're about to win and then you're killed because the Beast nuked Great Agarus in a close enough proximity. Shit just happens. As for the difference between verifiable facts and personally verifiable facts, I agree. I personally recognise many facts that are not universally verifiable, and can't verify all kinds of things that are scientifically verifiable, and basically have to take someone's word for it, which for the most part I do. As for the personally verifiable facts that can't be repeatedly demonstrated to others, I usually cite an example of astronauts who went to the Moon. They can't demonstrate it easily by just taking someone there because humans lost the ability to travel there in the meantime, and even if they didn't, it was too expensive and exclusive to warrant wasting a seat on Apollo in order to prove things to some random fool.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 11:55:12 +0000 UTCWell, my strategy is different, but since it doesn't work sufficiently, who am I to advertise it? Well, a proud little fleshling, I guess... No matter what people say, I examine that statement and its context with my semi-subconscious model of people, society and the natural world. If that statement contradicts my stance, I check if I can conficently reject it. If so, I ignore it, otherwise I check if I can conficently reject my previous stance. If so, I replace my stance. Otherwise, I respect the statement as a possible alternative. That has the ridiculous consequence that I can't fully reject the earth being flat. After all, I never walked around the earth myself on 3 orthogonal paths. All other statements that support a spherical earth could (although that requires a very contrived setting) be systematic misinformation, mistakes in perception, etc. I firmly believe that the earth is round, but I don't know it. So much for the ravings of a madman
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 11:01:37 +0000 UTC"You do realize the Nazis (among others) claimed Jews only stole your money while offering absolutely nothing positive?" - which is why I care very little for anyone's claims. Basically, words are cheap, and every villain has a theory.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 10:32:02 +0000 UTC"While I think that is very, very difficult" - it's definitely the hardest fight she ever had, in terms of a level differential. However, it's nowhere near as lethal as it would be if she fought Belphegor, for instance, because he could crush through her protective GS, and beside Avaritia's copy of Regnorex, remains the only one capable of doing so. Fortunately, Belphegor is family, but the question does remain about Regnorex. This looks very much like the Great Agarus fight, in a sense that he can't break through her shield, but she can't hurt him at all, although [Worldbreak] does seem to have hurt the Matriarch quite severely, to the point where I would put 80% probability that it crushed her immortality (which I'm pretty certain she had). Also, I would expect that at least some of her strikes count as deadly blows, participating in that pool where she has 10% probability of a kill, due to her Title. So, I'd say Sally has much better odds than she thinks, but it's such an incredibly hard fight due to the level discrepancy that I don't see her winning unless Salvos arrives, and hopefully with help. However, the difference in intelligence, versatility and understanding of magic, divinity and corruption is so heavily on Salvos' side once she arrives, this must count for something. Sally is a different matter, because Salvos learned most of it in the Netherworld, for instance that corruption is very weak to divinity and very strong to ordinary magic, or, more recently, that you can combine divine and corrupted skills into a single, super devastating attack. It appears that nobody knows about that, including Belphegor and Samuel.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 10:29:09 +0000 UTCYou do realize the Nazis (among others) claimed Jews only stole your money while offering absolutely nothing positive? The (lesser) centinels are ravenous animals. They are nor malicious. They eat and reproduce. Mori Gladius harmed himself to get the best possible outcome for others. That is also objectively neutral. Jofis was also a villain that's the hero of his own story, supporting his "chosen flock" at the expence of "lesser beings". The only thing that is objectively bad is revenge and other actions that harm both the agent and their target. Like eating chocolate. You feel bad when its effects wear off and the producer poisons their own customers.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 10:28:38 +0000 UTCSally knows Edithe is in the Spirit Realm, so Salvos should know by now, too. Given that Edithe's return is overdue, Salvos might send a clone to search for and rescue Edithe. Or the Archangel might have limited time/energy left, just enough for a teleport and one attack if it used Edithe as a vessel. While its body/powers expire, its conscious might even survive in the scythe, resulting in a sentient weapon.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 10:15:31 +0000 UTC""Goodness" is a ridiculous concept in and of itself." - no it's not; it's just difficult to quantify, but you know it when you see it. For instance, the way Mori Gladius ran things was an obvious example. "Salvos was "good" to Centina&co by being "bad" to the matriarch&co." - yes, but that's like claiming goodness is relative because you're being good to the Jews by being bad to the Nazis. Being good doesn't mean you have no enemies. If you have no enemies, it just means you don't stand for anything, don't defend anything, and you're essentially useless. Being good basically means having virtuous friends and villainous enemies, and Centinels in general are almost a caricature of a villainous enemy. They are mindless, super aggressive, super destructive, and they create absolutely nothing positive and are of absolutely no use to anyone. They are almost like a destructive force of nature, and they are exactly the kind of an enemy a virtuous person would strive to have. "In any case, if the agent tracks their own carma, a thoroughly delusional agent (Reggie) can achieve divinity just like a knowledgeable agent (Salvos). " - divinity is a tough one, especially since villainous but powerful actors are known to have it. However, in case of Jofis, his divinity seemed to come with a disclaimer; it was related to specific skills, or it was "wild divinity" or something, similar to how Salvos at lvl 125 had divinity-based GS, but couldn't use it outside that. Jofis kinda breaks my theory which says that you need to be non-selfish and expand your definition of self in order to get it; he's a super-selfish, callous and murderous supervillain, if anything, and by all known facts his kingdom was the nastiest form of tyranny, to the point where Regnorex was an upgrade. With Regnorex, one can understand that he expands his identity to encompass Demonkind as an abstract idea, although this looks like Hitler who identified with the abstract idea of Germany and Germans, but in practice he just got everybody killed, which is why I'm highly sceptical of the abstract ideas that don't map onto very concrete things.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 10:09:31 +0000 UTCWhile I think that is very, very difficult, I think Salvos has 2 winning moves already: (1) [The World of my Mind] - corrupted edition and (2) [Divine Radiant Slash] + [Corrupted Draconic Fury] Given the size and Level of the matriarch, she likely has to use them in concert, thought. [Corruption Mastery] even allows her to subtly influence the matriarch to increases her chances.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 09:57:28 +0000 UTC"Goodness" is a ridiculous concept in and of itself. Salvos was "good" to Centina&co by being "bad" to the matriarch&co. If you spin this further, you come to the hypothesis that such a score can only ever go down. I do, thought, agree with your conclusion: By showing empathy, an interest and care in regards to others' feelings, the agent progresses in a non-quantifiable way that changes evolution and title options. But I think the one tracking carma is the agent, not the system. As much as I used to hope that (metaphorically) one day, angels would descend from the sky and fulfill my every desire to compensate my compasion 😉 In any case, if the agent tracks their own carma, a thoroughly delusional agent (Reggie) can achieve divinity just like a knowledgeable agent (Salvos).
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 09:50:53 +0000 UTC"Good deeds grant social support and allies, are a fast way to get titles and likely help in developing a broader essence to get things like space magic, divinity and essences of other creature types." - this is true, but sounds far less exact than the explicit, numeric score of experience granted for killing and learning skills, which results in levelling and evolutions. Therefore, it doesn't really disprove my thesis, and I still think that good deeds, other than the positive effect they have on others and oneself, produce some quantifiable effect equivalent to levelling, but this effect is not made public. This counter is then used by the System in order to see what evolution you'll be offered, and, eventually, it determines whether you will eventually ascend to a True God. My thesis is that the beings that focus on their levels alone end up as Worldwalkers, while those who also act from kindness and goodness to the point of being both lvl 200 in strength and implicit lvl 200 in that secret goodness score, ascend as True Gods. So, how will you know if you qualify, so that you can eventually work on it? You can't; it must be your free and natural choice that shows the quality and nature of your soul. You need to protect and help others despite being shown no quantifiable reward for it, and in fact despite having to risk your life for it. Salvos/Sally did that multiple times, and she rationalises it as pride, but that doesn't say anything, since something other than pride made her feel proud of doing good. For instance, something that's non-pride made her promise to Centina and others that she will help them escape the Bloodied Gulf. The pride then made her stick to it, but it's never just pride. As she said, she liked them and thought they are nice, and that made her help them. She also doesn't save Rachel now because of pride or duty, but because she loves her. She just isn't very good at giving names to her emotions, or even doesn't care to do it.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-07 07:45:08 +0000 UTCIt's never explicetely stated, but based on the way it works I think experience is a limited resource that you can only get by taking it from somewhere else. There are a few edge cases where we don't know where it comes from, like leveling general skills and learning skills, but those can be explained as a reward from the system. Good deeds grant social support and allies, are a fast way to get titles and likely help in developing a broader essence to get things like space magic, divinity and essences of other creature types.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-07 06:32:31 +0000 UTCBTW nobody could really visualise and understand what Salvos went through in the Bloodied Gulf, and what it meant to go there ALONE as a lvl 110 and return as a lvl 130 with two Divine grand skills and multiple protected beings she saved from there. Here you go, take a look how and why she broke the breastplate of Alexander.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-06 20:47:38 +0000 UTC"Since I think the matriarch is aggressive and animalistic but less cunning than Jofis, I think Salvos can defeat her with the help of Manos, Clayton and whatever comes off Edithe's situation. " - yes, the Matriarch attacks in ways that remind me of a venomous snake - hiss, strike. Detach, strike again. Wrap around, bite. She's very nasty, and very stupid, one-dimensional. Sure, with enough help, Salvos can win this. However, I also think that with the breastplate of Alexander as a backup protective thing, and the scythe of the Arcraem, she can win unassisted. Her clones are always much weaker and more fragile than herself, and with her current titles, class and levels, and with some gadgets, in order to extend her protection and enhance her attack power, she has this. But again, we come to the same issue - she can't properly hurt the high level entities she's forced to fight. She needs something that bites deep and hard.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-06 20:15:28 +0000 UTCSince I think the matriarch is aggressive and animalistic but less cunning than Jofis, I think Salvos can defeat her with the help of Manos, Clayton and whatever comes off Edithe's situation. Even as she is last time we saw her. With the resulting stat/level boost, she can deal with the remaining legions and stand up to Focalor when he joins the battle halfway through to prevent Salvos from recruiting another large batch of demons. From that, she might evolve, test her strength against the [Great Agarus], visit Regnorex and bring him close enough to defeat that he sacrifices himself to activate the ritual.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-06 19:54:57 +0000 UTCI just re-read that part. That might have been the attack (or one of the attacks) that gave Salvos her new title. And I just noticed that I somehow thought of [Worldbreak] when you wrote [Godkiller]. In any case, I'm convinced [Divine Radiant Slash] + [Corrupted Draconic Fury] is Salvos' strongest focused attack! More lethal than [Worldbreak] and [Claw of Corruption] under most circumstances. [Godkiller] does probably operate on a similar principle in one skill, just stronger!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-06 19:33:35 +0000 UTC"The Salvos clone… the clone who gained sapience… the one who had been left behind and dedicated everything to protect those she cared about…" - I was thinking that this *must* have some kind of unseen consequences. The System must keep some kind of a secret score, that only itself knows of. I mean, just think about it: if you kill someone, you get experience, but if you save someone, you get nothing. That can't be right, especially since those acts are reflected in Titles and Classes, especially in their descriptions. Something must be going on, that is hidden, and probably in order for nobody to think of faking good deeds in order to score points. And just think what this must look like to Clayton and other Mages who can cast remote vision. The first thing Sally did was wrap herself around the little girl like a protective cocoon, organise her getaway, and then buy time by attacking a foe almost a hundred levels stronger, and actually scoring a very good hit. I hope all the Humans in the Academy are getting a good look.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-06 19:25:23 +0000 UTCIronically, "Trust me" subcommunicates "I don't think you'll trust me if I tell you what's going on" If people trust you, they will support you after you tell them and you can do the necessary with the added confidence. That's my experience at least.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-06 18:52:43 +0000 UTC"what’s the thought process behind salvos returning with the archangel?" - Well, not sure if you're asking me, and also not sure if that's going to happen, but: - assuming the Archangel is alive/revivable - assuming the Archangel reacts positively to Edithe's plea - assuming for some reason they go to find Salvos and not return to the Mortal Realm, but that's actually not strictly necessary because we now know Sally managed to establish the link with Salvos, and if Salvos finds out what's going on, and she's not in the middle of a life-and-death struggle, she's there in five seconds; - but let's say the Archangel brings Edithe and her team to the Netherworld, where they have a few fights with the wild demons just to get the taste of it and level some; then they eventually stumble onto one of Salvos clones or Salvos herself, they have a reunion and go deal with the Centinel problem. What's completely unclear to me is how Salvos ends up with that scythe, because in order for that to make sense the Archangel would have to die, and if he's dead he can't transport them across the planes. If he's alive, he might help but he's not letting that thing go. There's no precedent because Melas is inventing new stuff here so let's just wait and see. But there's a pretty obvious future where everybody learns about the System, the Arcraem, the Angels and the order of things, and it becomes clear that Soli is an impostor and a wannabe, and there's a real thing somewhere that he's mimicking on a "fake it until you make it" principle.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-06 13:03:55 +0000 UTCWell, sometimes trust saves time where it matters. You don't always have to make an elaborate case for everything, and I would actually argue that if you do, there's something wrong with the company you're keeping. "Trust me" basically means "there's something going on that's a complicated mess to explain and there's no time now." I'm not sure if any of it actually applies to this particular case, though. She could've said something like "There's a consciousness that talks to me and something about my skills allows me to hear it. I'll go along with it but it's not really safe, so I'm not risking you guys." However, it seems that this message has been understood regardless.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-06 11:17:04 +0000 UTC"I suspect fighting the remaining legions will set off a continuous chain of events that ends in Reggie's death." - that looks very likely, but the timing is uncertain. For instance, if Salvos takes too much time dealing with other things, he can finish the ritual, break the Nexeus and then it's game over. Also, if he intervenes too early and with a coordinated effort of a large force, Salvos would lose. But if he continues doing things the way he did so far, basically half-assing the whole thing, sending relatively small units that get destroyed, and reacting by sending another unit to investigate, he's going to run out of army, Salvos is going to get levelled more, and he eventually dies. I think we agree that this is the most likely scenario, because he's just so preoccupied with the ritual he can't be bothered to switch his focus completely to Salvos because he suddenly takes the threat seriously. So his most likely move after losing the rest of the legions and, likely, most of the Death Squad as they join Manos and Sicar, will be to send Focalor to deal with it while he continues dealing with the ritual. "That makes me think that we either pick up right after Manos joined or we will get a flashback to include Reggie's defeat." - yes, I wonder whether the memory transfers will include some parts that we have yet to see. That would be some teaser. :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-06 10:03:42 +0000 UTC"She used identify after [Worldbreak], a skill that breaks the world's rules. " - I don't think that's how it works. I think it breaks a very specific part of the world, by corrupting it. It was used on two separate enemies and in both cases they ended up with corrupted data showing on Identification, basically demonstrating that corruption is "broken world". I don't think it creates wider interference, in a sense that limitations to what you do would be removed because the world is broken. It breaks the target's structure, and apparently disrupts healing and immortality (and Divinity, in Jofis' case). Its effects can be temporarily suspended by a GS, but not altogether removed. I would say it has very constrained effects. It does, however, leave open the question of long term consequences to the world if you use it too much, because there's apparently a corruption storm forming in the Netherworld, imprinted with Jofis' motivational vector.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-06 09:56:29 +0000 UTCWhat I was actually thinking about is this: "I came to a halt right before Jofis, focusing [Divine Strike] and [Corrupted Draconic Fury] to my blade." - this caused an injury that didn't heal, probably by inhibiting the healing powers. Divine Strike can likely be replaced with Divine Radiant Slash, or any other Divine attack skill, presumably. It's just something Sally wouldn't think to do, since, obviously, her memory is in the process of reconstruction, which is a very inconvenient thing to have during a fight. Sally doesn't even know that Salvos has corruption powers.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-06 07:31:21 +0000 UTCwhat’s the thought process behind salvos returning with the archangel?
Jaiden Gabrani
2024-11-05 22:48:36 +0000 UTCIIRC, Edithe said the opposite around the time they went to the Plaguelands. So I assume she is correct for the general case (exclusing Salvos and fairies)
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 12:30:59 +0000 UTCYour second class/subspecies levels up quicker than your main
Travis Brown
2024-11-05 11:35:50 +0000 UTCI just skimmed over the fight again and only found [Divine Radiant Slash] by itself. And I remember being dissatisfied that she never pulled out this progressed version of her killer combo. That was her go-to attack for a while! Yes, it is not [Godkiller]. And that's a good thing because [Godkiller] seems to be more a sort of skill inhibitor that allows killing a god than the actual killing blow itself. Obviously, Salvos' variant empowers the target with corruption, so it seems more like a buff than a debuff...
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 11:35:43 +0000 UTC" supporting the idea that it is in fact related to a higher tier of divinity" - there are strong hints that this might be the case; or, at least that it's some modification of divinity.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 10:45:09 +0000 UTCNormally, I would absolutely agree, but given the general situation and the fact that the [Dreaded Goblet] might catalyze any development related to intellect, essence and knowledge, I currently favor that reasoning ;)
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 10:44:23 +0000 UTCI don't think it's that benign, I think she was slightly corrupted, but this made her corruption completely overwhelm her, possibly cancelling her immortality. However, I don't know if I'm right so I impatiently await the sequel. :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 10:41:25 +0000 UTCWell, I think they converged in the last chapters. Depending on the trajectory either of them shows up first, fails to produce results and the other joining tipps the scales, I think.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 10:39:25 +0000 UTC"Presenting [Divine Radiant Slash] + [Corrupted Draconic Fury]" - it's impressive, if we assume its features from what it did to Jofis; however, it's not [Godkiller].
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 10:38:29 +0000 UTCI still think the scythe will ultimately end up with Salvos, but who can say about the journey and its side effects ;)
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 10:37:11 +0000 UTCShe levels Identification so rarely I simply assumed it's improbable that she did now. It's possible, however.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 10:36:31 +0000 UTCI agree with your reasoning and conclusion, just not with the assumptions ;) Reconnecting might have just leveled [Identification], no levels requires.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 10:34:56 +0000 UTCFair enough. Given the lack of high level creature in the Mortal Realm and the difficulty of the journey alone, I would say she came to Secely close to her current level. As I said: Her feats are impressive in absolute terms. It remains to be seen how they stack up against the exception among exceptions that is Salvos ;)
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 10:31:44 +0000 UTCPresenting [Divine Radiant Slash] + [Corrupted Draconic Fury] I'm not sure why you bring up something as mediocre as a Death Star laser ;P
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 10:25:36 +0000 UTCAdverserial case: Archangel He had control over the corruption with 0 downsides, supporting the idea that it is in fact related to a higher tier of divinity. My standing theory is that "the corruption" is a spell of tier 2+ divinity, similar to [The Holy Flame]. So while a target does need to dispell/contain the spell, prolonged exposure attunes them to tier 2(+?) divinity.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 10:19:38 +0000 UTCWe know she wasn’t always at this lvl xD
Gonvas
2024-11-05 10:11:34 +0000 UTC"I expect the normal for someone at lvl 193 is for the class to be in the elite tier but not close to Primordial tier." Sounds silly to me, but I'm sure you're right. Can you quickly give me your evidence that even the stupidest creature goes through the grueling grind to get their 2nd class/subspecies that high? Every example I can think of had a strong external pressure applied to get to that state, giving me the impression that that pressure was necessary to reach that state... I'm sure Salvos would have learned [The World of my Mind] just by camping out in the Rainforrest of Monsters for a while...
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 10:10:31 +0000 UTC"You constantly doubt Salvos is in control of her corruption but the matriarch can have it?" - I'm afraid nobody is in control of the corruption, not in the long run. Eventually you either recover from it or die to it. However, we never saw an example of someone recovering from it, or outright defeating it. They just live with it, like a chronic disease.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 10:03:22 +0000 UTCI expect the normal for someone at lvl 193 is for the class to be in the elite tier but not close to Primordial tier.
Gonvas
2024-11-05 10:02:12 +0000 UTCI think it absolutely is exceptional from a normalized standpoint! What I'm saying that it might not be as exceptional for her level. In fact, maybe a few like her in level and essence headed for Secely, but they killed each other on the way.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 09:52:58 +0000 UTCIf those that don't have a strong class were all culled, Hartia wouldn't have noted anything about the Cerberus' strength because it would be normal. So the wording is proof that that is not normal.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 09:49:11 +0000 UTCI completely agree! Afterall, miscommunication is the root of all social problems ;)
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 09:47:20 +0000 UTCYou constantly doubt Salvos is in control of her corruption but the matriarch can have it? Well, I'm still not sure what exactly [Worldbreak] does mechanically, so...
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 09:19:22 +0000 UTCI think her body will be destroyed and her consciousness immediately moved to Salvos' closest other clone to really drive home that Sally is special but still a part of Salvos. An anointed clone if you will, a general. A largely independent second agent for Salvos.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 09:17:04 +0000 UTCU don't think what the Matriarch did is exceptional? U think anyone could have done what she did?
Gonvas
2024-11-05 09:14:53 +0000 UTCIt proves they have classes and even wild demons can get them to a comparable lvl to their subspecies. IMO, an environment full of wild individuals favours the survival of individuals with a 2nd class/subspecies developed. In general, that will allow them to have a greater prowess than those that don't develop them. In the end, the weak are culled from the population.
Gonvas
2024-11-05 09:11:41 +0000 UTCThe sentence „I can’t explain right now just trust me.“ is always so annoying not matter where I read it. Just say „The scythe wants me to give it the metal orb.“ simple explanation and easily understandable
Plateworm
2024-11-05 09:04:06 +0000 UTCI suspect fighting the remaining legions will set off a continuos chain of events that ends in Reggie's death. That makes me think that we either pick up right after Manos joined or we will get a flashback to include Reggie's defeat.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 09:03:02 +0000 UTC"I assume Sally will be destroyed in a heroic sacrifice! " - I hope not, she's a good girlfriend candidate for Salvos. :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 09:02:36 +0000 UTCI don't see conclusive evidence for Salvos fighting/leveling at all. Sally could just have got her own GS budget thanks to [Salvo of Vanity] evolving thanks to the [Dreaded Goblet] or because of the essence GS level. If [Identification] allows you to understand creatures 10x its level above you, that is a stronger argument but not prohibitive. The goblet business could have just leveled [Identification] to 7.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 08:59:16 +0000 UTCTo what other lvl 238 do you compared her when you say she is the most exceptional? Salvos did the same thing arguably better at ~lvl 160
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 08:50:42 +0000 UTC"the lvl 193 Cerberus of Hell that atk the expanse (Hartia guessed the class was of similar lvl as the subspecies based on its prowess)." That right there is proof that normal wild demons aren't paying attention to their class. Otherwise the Cerberus' strength wouldn't be noteworthy, it would be normal. To explicate it in formalited logic: "demon is strong for its level" -> "has a high class level" also means !("has a high class level") -> !("demon is strong for its level"). In other words if a demon doesn't have a high class level, it has more ordinary prowess.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 08:47:30 +0000 UTCThose were just examples. U were already going down a line where they are like undead and golems without 2nd subspecies and class which makes 0 sense. IMO, the Matriarch is the most exceptional centinel here. To survive the Endlands, to bring one of her subspecies to such a lvl in the mortal plane, to singlehandedly save her species, ...
Gonvas
2024-11-05 08:46:38 +0000 UTCWhat you're saying is that we saw equal levels for both 1st and 2nd class/species in EXCEPTIONAL centinels and wild(-ish?) demons. And that makes you generalize it to all of them? Leveling the 2nd costs time otherwise invested in the 1st, so "carries" is a misnomer imo. While you do get the advantage that level appropriate opponents for the 2nd can't harm you when you first get it, they will also try to flee. I stand by my point that you need a driving motivator and a lot of patience to raise your 2nd to the level of your 1st. And therefore I belief the books when they say demons commonly don't do it and I generalize that to encompass everyone in a hostile and/or non-intellectual environment.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 08:30:14 +0000 UTCJust because they are wild doesn't mean they ignore the status. Otherwise they wouldn't get stronger (no adding skills and stats, spending SP, choosing evolutions/advancements, etc).
Gonvas
2024-11-05 08:26:02 +0000 UTCI wonder if Edithe is going to become the Archangels vessel or something along those lines. Also, looks like Sally is getting current Salvos' powers. Let's hope it's enough 😔
Azrie
2024-11-05 08:23:31 +0000 UTCI would say, generally speaking, that your power is a function of what you had to fight and survive to get to that point. Also, I would say that the Matriarch obviously extends through her brood - she can command the Ancient Centinels that are "unawakened", for instance, and she almost certainly gets experience for what her brood kills. However, I can't imagine her fighting many lvl 200+ beings, for a very simple reason: there are almost none, historically, in the Mortal Realm, and she's not known for killing any - and since they are all famous, it would have been a serious point in history. So, no; her brood killed many Diamonds and Elites in the Bloodied Gulf, she fought the corruption for a very long time until she fled, half corrupted but also with corruption-based skills. So her levels are pretty much extreme, but I would say it's nothing like someone like Jofis, Focalor or Samuel faced. If anything, I expect that to tip the scales in Salvos' favour. Salvos always fought enemies 20 levels and an evolution above her; she studied magic, she knows space magic on a level that would almost match Samuel at this point, uses Divine Nebular Creation magic on a level that's also incredibly sophisticated, has multiple powerful titles stacked, a unique Class at 150, and has four Grand Skills, by this point probably maxed out. Fighting Salvos shouldn't be much different than fighting Regnorex or Great Agarus at this point, with one exception: she lacks super devastating offensive Grand Skills. She has a Swiss army knife, not a Death Star laser.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 08:23:02 +0000 UTCIt's easier to lvl up the 2nd one. The 1st one carries the 2nd because at the start the tier is lower so the partial XP it goes there is enough to go up very fast. Unless one of them has recently entered a new tier, they are most likely at the same tier. Assuming that in the case of classes they both are combat related. We even saw this with Centinels and Wild Demons, e.g., evolved centinels (the evolved subspecies is actually the 2nd one and it was diamond rank) and the lvl 193 Cerberus of Hell that atk the expanse (Hartia guessed the class was of similar lvl as the subspecies based on its prowess).
Gonvas
2024-11-05 08:15:59 +0000 UTCThere's another thing that crossed my mind. Sally used to be lvl 150. That's why she was previously unable to identify the Matriarch. Well, she no longer is lvl 150. Not only is she under two grand skills, and can access skills belonging to the class upgrade Salvos got while in the Netherworld, *her* levels rose to a minimum of 178 necessary to identify the Matriarch. However, the connection is still spotty, like trying to download five torrents and a windows update over some weird public wifi over a VPN. :) But she is getting both the "OS update", memory dumps, and who knows what. Which makes me think two things: how powerful is Salvos actually at this point, a few days into the future from what we know, and how long will it take for her to make an appearance, because she absolutely must have noticed this. A clone syncing up and using two grand skills within seconds is a major event.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 08:09:58 +0000 UTCShe used identify after [Worldbreak], a skill that breaks the world's rules. So it doesn't matter what the Salvos level is.
Alexey Gladkich
2024-11-05 08:02:56 +0000 UTCNo wonder the Devil reacted the way he did.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 07:20:45 +0000 UTCIndeed.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 07:19:45 +0000 UTCDepends on what happened in the meantime. The last we know, she was heading into a fight. She obviously got at least 4 levels from something, but let’s say it’s more than one fight, since it’s multiple days, and she has a packed schedule there. At least as many levels in the class. 180 in species, 165 in class? 4 GS points. If they cap at 3, she’s maxed out.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 07:17:36 +0000 UTCWe don”t actually know what level Salvos is at this point. Meaning, more GS points, possibly maxed out GS. This has to be days into the future, Divine Essence likely past cooldown, dunno if the Claw is operational. Salvos is min. 178, which means a GS point at 175, likely another at class 160, but also not impossible that she”s 180 with class 170, if she fought all hell combined in the meantime, which is actually likely. Fortunately, she survived. If she freed Focalor, possibly another stackable title related to exceptional soul magic feats? But that’s stretching it. In any case, she’s much more powerful than last we saw her.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 07:10:58 +0000 UTCImagine his reaction if Salvos returns with Focalor, Manos, Sicar, Haec, and possibly the Archangel, and they pulverize the Matriarch. :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 07:00:55 +0000 UTCYeah, her extending through her brood the way Salvos extends through her clones is reasonable.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 06:57:10 +0000 UTCI think she had corruption under control, and this completely broke her control.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-05 06:55:19 +0000 UTCI wonder if Salvos and the Archangel are going to join the fight against the Broodmother. We don't know exactly how the time lines up but it would be interesting to see them both show up at the same time.
Tim
2024-11-05 06:44:55 +0000 UTCThat will be a serious shocker! Let's see to whom ;)
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 00:13:04 +0000 UTCI think at that level the differences narrow. But the second class/subspecies definitely does change the balance! InSalvos' favor I'm sure!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 00:12:05 +0000 UTCUntil now, she made Salvos clones (same as herself?) but now, they are different. Possibly thanks to Salvos' higher base stats. The most noteworthy thing was that they were explicitely called "Sally clones"!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 00:10:14 +0000 UTCMaybe even a handfull levels higher ;) Maybe even with an additional GS point or 2 under her belt ;P
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 00:06:48 +0000 UTCIt would be completely unfair if she had both her subspecieses at that level, wouldn't it? I guess her second subspecies is low level (~100?). That makes it more reasonable for her first subspecies to be this high up.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 00:04:55 +0000 UTCThe way it is worded and what we know about her past, that must be her original form.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 00:02:25 +0000 UTCI wonder if that would just apply to centinels slaughtering other creatures or if their infighting woukd count as well...
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-05 00:01:19 +0000 UTCYou know what we good we got the world of my mind skill available now, I’m thinking of any answers that can get us that W
Travis Brown
2024-11-04 23:51:53 +0000 UTCWhat an amazing chapter! There's action! There's story progress! There's crazy attacks flying around! There's mysteries unravelling! Perfection!
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-04 23:50:48 +0000 UTCWhen did the salvos clone skill become so OP, by that I mean her clone can make clones when was this a thing did the skill just even after using the goblet of the gods
Travis Brown
2024-11-04 23:49:21 +0000 UTCI think the [Dreaded Goblet] triggered it. Salvos got the means to sustain a interplanar connection with her class upgrade but the goblet kickstarted it from Sally's side. Or something of that nature.
Dragonmaster_42
2024-11-04 23:48:33 +0000 UTCLvl 238 good thing mortals are weaker than demon/fairies and swarm monsters like centinels are weaker than humans, we need every plus we can get
Travis Brown
2024-11-04 23:47:35 +0000 UTCShe's much higher lvl than I thought. My expectations was low 200s and at most almost reaching 220. With her 2nd subspecies maybe being still below 200 (depending on how far from 200 was the 1st one).
Gonvas
2024-11-04 23:25:39 +0000 UTCGreat chapter!!!
Użytkownik Przeciętny
2024-11-04 23:16:00 +0000 UTCGreat idea. I hadn't thought of that. And it fits with the broodmother theme
Sancturillore -- Élie Simard-Wallot
2024-11-04 23:08:14 +0000 UTCMy first guess would be salvos getting more powerful with better skills, the connection starts to restore itself, tho theres a delay because of the different planes they are on.
Hellasz123
2024-11-04 23:01:35 +0000 UTC178 at the minimum, with Identification at lvl 6.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-04 22:47:00 +0000 UTCI think she was corrupted already and this just brought it to the surface
Hellasz123
2024-11-04 22:27:45 +0000 UTCThats what I said xD I am 100% convinced she has a skill that lets her get exp from other centinels killing stuff, there is no other way she would get so high leveled in the mortal realm, unless she did some serious farming in the endlands, which seems a bad idea if she is the the last remaining broodmother
Angworu
2024-11-04 22:19:24 +0000 UTCWait, if Sally can now identify the level of the matriarch, then what level is Sally/Salvos at now?
Sancturillore -- Élie Simard-Wallot
2024-11-04 22:12:43 +0000 UTCI wonder if Clayton is watching this and thinking whether his morning tea was spiked with magic mushrooms or something. :)
Danijel Turina
2024-11-04 22:07:31 +0000 UTCCool chaper Seeing as the ancient centinel salvos killed to start this also used corruption the matriarc was probably already like that and just shifted to battle form Also I wonder what caused memories and skills to bleed over
Til Weisheit
2024-11-04 22:02:13 +0000 UTCThe link is actually here - not only memories, but grand skills and skills from the new class as well. That's incredibly awesome, especially if it's bidirectional. Also, I think [Worldbreak] might have just broken the Matriarch the way it broke Jofis, basically corrupting his CRC data for immortality. This needs two ingredients for perfection. Salvos, and the Scythe of the Arcraem.
Danijel Turina
2024-11-04 21:58:48 +0000 UTC"Lvl. 238" - oh for fuck's sake!
Danijel Turina
2024-11-04 21:55:30 +0000 UTCHA, told you salvos has no right to be boxing the matriarch! good luck sally, try not to die
Jaiden Gabrani
2024-11-04 21:50:23 +0000 UTC
