UFOs, Space-Time, and Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence
Added 2021-07-02 23:30:15 +0000 UTCBreht, Adnan, and Henry talk about the prospects for extraterrestrial life, what is actually on the government's UFO tapes, and what UFOs would want if they were indeed real. A thought provoking and fun discussion all around!
Comments
Your observation about the mainstreaming of conspiracy culture really caught my eye. It's something we saw in the last days of the Russian Empire before the Revolution - the Tsar's secret police put out the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, there was a marked uptick in interest in telepathy, astrology, etc. There's a real fin de siecle vibe going on here for sure. I'll have to check out the Media Roots piece the Martins always have interesting things to say.
Matt
2021-07-04 15:19:47 +0000 UTCAgree with a lot of what Matthew is saying here, highly recommend the recent breakdown that Abby and Robbie Martin did on Media Roots Radio. I really appreciate socialist and anti imperialist discussions of this topic, so thank you all for taking this on! I am definitely inclined toward skepticism but at the same time I think the real consequences of these discussions are tragically ignored by the left or engaged with on a totally utopian level. With regard to the psyop point, I think the most interesting thing is this sort of official legitimization and mainstreaming of certain aspects of conspiracy culture (Q, lab leak, now UFOs). I don't see any reason why these pilots would be lying or have to be in on a grand conspiracy. I believe they saw things they couldn't explain, but I agree with you that I don't totally understand what their play is if this is a psyop. There is fairly convincing evidence that these are photographic artefacts, and that there is no real light imagery (all IR or radar) it could be anything. I do agree with Adnan that this does note bode well for the continued privatization and militarization of space regardless of what you think this is actually going on here. I totally agree with you and love the microbial universe solution to the Fermi paradox. On the more "legitimate" pro-UFO side, there has been this interesting case of Harvard astronomer Avi Loeb forwarding a theory that this strangely shaped interstellar asteroid Oumuamua that passed through the solar system last year was an alien probe powered by a solar sail. Maybe it could've dropped these smaller probes??? On that point the idea that "living" beings as we understand them are travelling in spaceships between stars is very misguided and uncrewed technology is much more likely.
Jasper
2021-07-03 21:25:54 +0000 UTCI think this is a totally fair and principled epistemic position, and I largely agree with its humility and deference to the most reasonable option (Occam's Razor, etc.). I would argue that it comes down to whether you think the US state is highly coordinated and capable of organizing such a conspiracy across pilots, media outlets, leakers, politicians, etc. OR is more times than not incompetent, unable to coordinate effectively across agencies, and had their hand forced by super credible leaks that came out before they admitted they were true. I think reasonable people can come down on either side of this, but I lean toward the latter. And as I said in the episode, they actually have an incentive not to release the footage or confirm it, since it means they are admitting they dont know what it is and that they dont have command over their own airspace - which from their perspective isnt something they'd want to admit publicly. But again, many variables are at play, I wouldnt be shocked either way, and like you, remain largely agnostic and open minded awaiting more evidence. I think this all happening as our cliimate change disaster accelerates is interesting, and if intelligent lifeforms existed who cared about keeping planets inhabitable for the flourishing of life, it seems like a super relevant and important time for them to at least be interested in whats going on, if not to intervene! We shall see! ;)
Revolutionary Left Radio
2021-07-03 20:06:10 +0000 UTCAt this point I'm about 80% convinced that this is some sort of weird psyop. My reasoning is this: as Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, no? So a claim of this magnitude, I think a certain amount of epistemic conservatism is appropriate. But not to the point of completely shutting out the possibility in an arrogant way - which is why I say 80% sure, not 100%. The problem is, leaks are a double edged sword, and something being leaked doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't meant to get out there. There's leaks of the Ed Snowden/Chelsea Manning variety, and then there's "leaks" that are intentionally put out there for whatever reason. Like when Valerie Plame's identity as a CIA agent was "leaked" to retaliate against her husband, who was questioning the veracity of Iraq's WMDs. From my perspective, this whooooole thing (Navy Pilots, footage, and all) could be some coordinated campaign. The fact that I don't know why they would do this, doesn't make it less likely lol. It could be for any number of reasons. But the point isn't whether or not the idea of it being intentionally leaked is fantastic (it IS highly fantastic and seemingly unlikely), but whether it's relatively more or less likely than there actually being extraterrestrials. It still seems like the more likely story to me, by a long shot. The War Nerd did a really good episode on times when this has been done previously. Military spies have leaked this stuff out in the past for murky reasons. But, Arrival is one of my favorite movies and the idea of contacting other life forms has always been something I've dreamed of, so I'd love to be wrong here. I do really love the discussion of this topic and the RevLeft episode on Posadism too (I'm currently reading I Want to Believe, great book!), so even though I'm skeptical I definitely wouldn't mind more discussion of this topic! Edit: Forget to mention, in my opinion a strong point in favor of E.T. is circumstantial, but it is striking to me that this all started happening roughly around the time Oumama (sp?) showed up in our solar system.
Matt
2021-07-03 17:21:52 +0000 UTC
